Agh! Mario, what have you done? - ID: 636
FORUM: Feature Requests
This topic was started by Apriori on 06/05/2012, 08:56:17
I enjoyed this game so much that, after I had placed the strange egg, I decided to play through again.
I was back in the Burial Mound going for those nice chests that I remember holding some good equipment. Then I found it, I can't open them anymore. Since upgrading to 2.10 it seems that I need a rogue to open them. Obviously I don't have a rogue as they used tobe as useful as a sack of rocks. I can't open them with a trap zap and forcing them seems to always fail. Does this mean that I can never open a chest again?
Looks like I'm going to have to start playing Skyrim again.
Hi Apriori,
Yes, the chests in the grave mound are now no longer subject to the Trap Zap spell (along with some other chests). You will indeed need a rogue.
I decided to change this so that the rogue will play a more important part in the gameplay.
Regards
Mario
I do have a rogue (never leave home without one), so I don't have that problem, but: the new lockpicking is really tedious with a low level party. If the mechanism jams, which happens a lot because my timing isn't the best, you have to go through a lot of taps over and over again to finally get it open (unjam - fail - select "Pick Lock" - select character - unjam - fail etc. etc.). After the 20th iteration this really gets boring. As a solution, could the rogue perhaps use a lockpick to unjam a stuck lock?
Having said that, the new mechanism makes a lot more sense than the old word games, so it's defintiely a step in the right direction. And of course I applaud your decision to make rogues more useful in the game ;)
Before changing the system again, I would like to hear some more voices.
I thoroughly tested the new system, and hopefully it works out on all levels of difficulty. But I will make it easier of course if it happens to spoil the fun.
Regards
Mario
Panic over.
I found a way to open those chests without a rogue.
As the chests contain nothing that was vital for the progress of the game I guess it's okay (though a load of money comes in very useful at that time).
I have now had more time to consider and think that the problem with the rogue is that he is next to useless in combat.
The inclusion of a rogue is asking the player to sacrifice either 1/4 of his melee strength, if placed in the front of the team, or 1/3 of his magical strength. For me this sacrifice is not worth the rogues lock picking ability.
I think that a better way to get more use from the rogue would be to make him more useful in combat. Increase the chance of a critical hit when hidden. Allow the rogue to remain hidden, some of the time, after an attack. Make it easier for a rogue to sneak forward when hidden. Allow the inclusion of a rogue in the team to improve the rewards, both in xp and money, after combat.
I didn't use a rogue in the original Bard's Tale for the same reasons. I did use a rogue in the wizardry games though, but you could change his class to a monk in them.
i went thru the game and won it without a rogue in the party. i then took a couple months off and thought i'd pop back to see if there were any updates or expansions etc ... i read about the stoneblade maybe being a requirement to enter the new area so since i have a Paladin i head back to the mountains to see if i can actually find it this time around and i'm pretty sure i've found the chest it's in after wooping a badass very large dude but i can't force it open and i don't have a rouge so now what ?
You don't need him to be a permanent member of your party, though.
Mario: Haven't tried it yet, but just don't make it reflex-based.
You don't need him to be a permanent member of your party, though.
...but if you don't keep him in the party and you find a chest you can't open, deep in a dungeon, you have to go all the way back out and return with him. The Grave Mound is a good example, it's about the toughest of the dungeons (due to the weakness of your party when you tackle it). This dungeon contains a lot of 'super chests' and if you had to keep going back for a rogue, waiting for midnight each time, you could be at it for years.
As a first time player, how do you know if the chest contains a vital item? You have to open them all.
So far I have found these super chests in the Grave Mound and the Druid's Temple. I am lucky that, so far, I have been able to crack them without a rogue.
This change actually made me go through all the motions of registering just to say that it sucks. I am 20 hours in, at the sign of m. Darkness area in tar. passage, and have I have no rogue because as we know rogues are garbage. I don't want and will not use one. Even if somehow they didnt suck in combat, it is also annoying to pick hide out of the list in that awkward spot that doesnt line up well with the usual attack/defend spam from the rest of your melees and bows. In fact at this point if anything I am tempted to drop my paladin and use a 3rd Mage to go with my bard, two warriors and ranged hunter. I suspect monks would be cool at about 12hp/level too. But no rogue.
Either simply greatly up the spell cost to trap zap those chests, or allow the bard to somehow take care of opening them with the aid of either safe journey or illumination songs, or allow a successful high str (25 isn't working for me ATM) bash to do it but while 'injuring" that person i.e. a huge non lethal hp loss or something.
Pretty sure I'm going to stop playing until this is dealt with. Ugh.
Hello everybody,
I am sorry that this causes so much confusion and problems.
In fact, the new system is tailored on using a rogue - but I don't want to force you to use one.
The mentioned changes sound good to me, so I would like to update the system in this way:
- improving the TRZP cost for chests that wouldn't be subject to spells normally
- giving the bard more means to help
- improving the success of Force Open attempts
Please take the time to consider this and let me know if you would like to see any more changes.
Updating the game shouldn't take too long afterwards.
Regards
Mario
Mario,
I open your new ‘super chests’ by first hitting them with a trap zap, to disable any traps, and then forcing them open with my strongest character. This often takes 20 or 30 tries before they pop open.
It would be nice if it was less tedious. How about making it easier if you used that iron bar on them? If not the iron bar then another tool (bolt cutters, hydraulic jack, jaws of life…) :lol:
I don’t use Bards either so a fancy chest opening tune won’t help me.
- improving the TRZP cost for chests that wouldn't be subject to spells normally
- giving the bard more means to help
- improving the success of Force Open attempts
i like all these ideas and would be very happy to see them implemented
i don't like the rogue mainly because of the extra time to hide in the shadows and then sneak up on someone to take them out.i can understand where this would appeal to many and i say go to it and have fun with it but i prefer to get in there and duke it out.as long as there are some options to open these chests we should all be happy cuz the game is just a hoot to play!
for those not using a bard i can highly recommend them as #4 melee character.the tunes are very helpful and the instruments at the higher levels (love me those demon pipes!) can really help to save spell points for your mages
I have also just ran the update to the game. I've only gathered chests from the outdoor areas since (Deeper Forest and Loch Caetar) and have found that the treasure inside is fixed rather than randomized as it used to be. Not sure if this is intended (it will be hard to outfit all my guys in the healing potions that I have been getting though) but I did not see anyone pointing it out on the forum and just wanted it brought to your attention.
I have also just ran the update to the game. I've only gathered chests from the outdoor areas since (Deeper Forest and Loch Caetar) and have found that the treasure inside is fixed rather than randomized as it used to be. Not sure if this is intended (it will be hard to outfit all my guys in the healing potions that I have been getting though) but I did not see anyone pointing it out on the forum and just wanted it brought to your attention.
Hello Matrim,
the contents should be fix now, that is intended (to avoid chest camping).
Regards
Mario
the contents should be fix now, that is intended (to avoid chest camping).
Regards
Mario
i can maybe see that for the "super" chests that have a one of a kind item but otherwise the random feature is not only fun to reopen them a few times to see what you can score but sometimes necessary to avoid duplication or useless items like a thief dagger when you don't have a rogue in your party
Hiya.
I registered on these forums specifically in order to reply to this topic; though now that I'm here I plan on being a little more active than while in my prior lurking-only mode.
I met the 2.10 update with chagrin, since I retired my level 15 rogue quite some time ago in favor of a bard; as she's much better equipped to support my party, consisting of three mages. The rogue is a decent utility character, but as has been discussed to death in prior topics, she has increasingly become irrelevant as my mages have grown more proficient in their craft.
I was thrilled to see you acknowledge that the recent 2.10 changes effectively making the rogue a required party member will be mitigated and rebalanced in certain respects. I have a few suggestions as well.
The lock-bashing approach:
I would like to see the 'force open' option become much more reliable... and punishing. It took me upwards of 70 attempts before I was able to force open the chest in the Lost Temple containing the Shard of Nature. That seems... excessive. I think you should make chests immune to the exploration-view Trap Zap spell that disables chests' traps and allows for relatively safe force-openings. Additionally, forcing should scale more intelligently to strength (low-mid 20s should have a really good chance of success) and greatly increase the chance of a chest's trap firing. Finally, the party member that successfully bashes the chest should sustain additional, non-fatal damage on top of any damage that might be incurred due to the trap.
The bard approach:
Another option would be to grant the bard class with a diminished ability to pick locks. Her lockpicking algorithm could grant her roughly 50% of the skill of a similarly-leveled rogue, for example. You could make it a requirement that the bard have a set of lockpicks equipped before the option to pick the lock is even enabled; thus handicapping her ability to carry additional horns/bow ammunition. (I would rather that attempts not decrement the number of lockpick uses, however...) And finally, she should probably not have access to the disarm skill, rendering even a successful unlock something of a dangerous option. At least, more dangerous than that afforded by a skilled rogue.
The mage approach revisited:
Disabling the Trap Zap spell for seemingly non-random treasure chests certainly was a bit of a shock. But instead of eliminating that as a possibility altogether for a decent chunk of the game's chests, why not scale the Trap Zap spell cost (and perhaps success rate?) according to chests' difficulty levels? Make the more difficult locks cost more to unlock to represent the increased effort and energies required to magically defeat them?
Edit:
Also - Considering the relative lack of quality shops in the game and low enemy drop rates, eliminating chest-camping is no fun! *pouts*
Something else I have noticed as I am playing through the Grave Mound, Bandit's Cave, and the Sewers is that almost none of the chest actually have treasure in them. Some do, some are even randomized but the majority just have gold. The result has been a party full of people in their beginning equipment. I have the occasional upgrade that drops randomly from monsters but for the most part I am wearing rags. The very few that do have items inside of them contain stuff that would be quite a downgrade from what I would have normally found there (For instance a chest in Bandit's Cave had Plate Armour where as Iron Plate Armour would have been the norm for such a chest). Again not sure if this is intended or not but I am wondering if this trend continues how I will be able to keep up in AC as monsters get tougher.
I have another idea that may be worth consideration. I apologize if something similar has been suggested before...if so, I missed it. :)
It seems you could incentivize having a rogue in your party by implementing any (or all) of the following:
1. Improving the chance of obtaining higher quality items from locked chests when a rogue is present in your party.
2. Improving enemy drop rate when a rogue is present in your party.
3. Improving the quality of items obtained from enemies when a rogue is present in your party.
It seems these rogue enhancements could be affected by their Dex and/or Luck.
I feel these enhancements would make a rogue extremely appealing to have in the party at all times, and would not require punishing other classes in the process.
Thoughts?
Thank you all for your great feedback.
Some of the more complicated changes will be implemented with the upcoming expansion.
But I already packed some things into the next update:
- forcing a chest open will now follow different rules. The chance for forcing a chest open will increase by 5% per STR over 18.
- the attempt of forcing will cost you HP.
- using a lockpick not only eliminates a switch from the chest game, but also unjams the chest.
- the chest game is now 50% slower, giving you more time for the difficult switches.
Regards
Mario
Sorry Mario, the new version, 2.1.1, is no better. Not only are the unbreakable chest still unbreakable but they now try to kill you.
Hello Apriori,
my apologies!
Please send me your save game so that I can check this out.
With the new version, you should be able to lockpick every chest.
If that is not possible, there seems to be a problem with your game - or with that special chest.
The update was intended to give more means of opening. If that failed, I will fix that asap of course.
Regards
Mario
Hi Mario,
I'm at work at the moment. I will try to get something to you later today.
At present my team is standing in front of the chest in the center of the river in the Ridge Fault. I still do not have a rogue but my warrior (ST:35) can't force that chest. He runs out of hit points (about 550). I have tried reloading as well as healing him but still no joy.
UPDATE:
OK Mario. I see from the other thread that you are on to this. I assume that you no longer require my save file. I will wait for the new new fix.
Just pointing out, using a Rogue in this game is essentially trading combat power for out of battle convenience. It should give you something cool to compensate. Rather than ask for an option for no rogue, try to propose something else that would make people want a rogue - maybe then they won't need exclusive chests.
Maybe listing the TRZP cost (and making it 50-ish on the hardest chests) would let people wish they had a rogue once in a while. Being able to know what's in the chest after failing to bash it, in order to now if you want to spend enough HP doing it that you need to exit the dungeons afterwards might also work - groups with rogues get to open all chests, whereas you need to choose, or something.
Extra gold every time you find gold would be a neat boon although the lack of shops kinda nerfs it. (go casters!)
An item for faster advance in shadows, or abilities to remain hidden or higher crit rate might help as well.
P.S. No exclusive chests in Grave Mound without an advance time function, please. Getting in there SUCKS.
As an alternative to the rogue class, Is there a chance of maybe adding a lock pick / disarm traps to the Hunter class maybe with a less of an advantage. It's very nice to have the long range abilities of the hunter as well as the crit chance with out having to always attempt to hide in the shadows like with the rogue. Or maybe add some Additional benefits to the roque class so that it's a bit more useful other then just for opening chests? Since having high level casters it basically makes most of the rogues abilities useless other then just opening the occasional untrap zapable chest.
Btw as a side note I like the current pick lock method compared to the last one.
