Warrior vs Paladin? - ID: 1589
FORUM: Gossip - The rusty dagger tavern
This topic was started by Krunchyfrogg on 06/09/2019, 14:02:58
What does the warrior do that the Paladin can not?
I’m brand new to this game and I’m trying to plan out my “perfect” party. I’m trying to see what each class does.
Since both of these fit the “up front tank/muscle” role, I’m wondering what each’s Strengths and weaknesses are.
Thank you.
They are almost identical at first. As they progress, each will develop differently.
The Paladin, as you probably know, offers some spells, including one that will improve your entire party's armor class and THAC0. Those benefits get better each time the Paladin goes up 5 levels. Very useful.
The fighter has no spells, and is strictly a brawler. However, his or her brawling ability gets better faster and my recollection is that they can use more armor and weapons. But there isn't a huge advantage.
My party usually has both a paladin and a warrior, along with a bard, a rogue, a monk, and two magic users. Others swear by the hunter and drop the warrior. Still others go magic heavy and use three magic users. You can also go with just 6 (or even 5) characters. Each has advantages and disadvantages.
Thank you for your clear answer.
I also see that there are more classes in the guide book than are available for me to choose at the beginning.
Is this a lot like the old Bards Tale games where characters can change classes as they advance?
Yes, exactly! Your mages will advance from Magician to Conjurer (or vice versa), then Sorcerer to Wizard (or vice versa) and finally Archmage. You have to progress to at least level 13 to advance to the next class.
There is also Dragoncaller, which is available only if you buy the expansion and only after you have finished the original game. Magic users cannot become Dragoncallers. The expansion also includes alchemy, but that is a skill anyone can learn.
P.S. the crunchy frog was much better than the spring surprise! :)
P.S. the crunchy frog was much better than the spring surprise! :)
Larks vomit! :p
I love when people get it.
Yes, exactly! Your mages will advance from Magician to Conjurer (or vice versa), then Sorcerer to Wizard (or vice versa) and finally Archmage. You have to progress to at least level 13 to advance to the next class.
There is also Dragoncaller, which is available only if you buy the expansion and only after you have finished the original game. Magic users cannot become Dragoncallers. The expansion also includes alchemy, but that is a skill anyone can learn.
How do I know if I have the expansion or not? I bought this app years ago and never actually played it.
On your settings screen , a "+" will be displayed next to the version number IF you have the expansion (enabled).
e.g.
Silversword Modern (2.73+) Settings
kind regards
Mario
They are almost identical at first. As they progress, each will develop differently.
The Paladin, as you probably know, offers some spells, including one that will improve your entire party's armor class and THAC0. Those benefits get better each time the Paladin goes up 5 levels. Very useful.
Those spells also last until magically dispelled or until you go to a camp.
But after they cast buffs, they just kinda exist. They do decent single-target damage and tank hits, but that’s about it. Yeah they have Sodar’s recall, but it :
A) costs a metric ton of SP and
B) is made redundant by Wizard’s Beyond death spell (18 base SP cost out of perhaps several hundreds).
As for the Warrior, it deals huge damage, but if you use a high-ish (20+ lv and 25 dx) ranged hunter, you can IK whatever you target with 99% crit rate. If you’re looking for single killers, pick the hunter. Warrior is a tank, but a well-built Hunter has almost as good AC and hitpoints and take out any threats at any range (unless in early play).
In other words the Paladin is good for improving your combat stats, and the Warrior does high damage, but what if you encounter hp sponges? It falls off HARD in favor of the crit-oriented Hunter, because crits does not care about hp sponges.
So yeah, pick a pally for those perma-buffs, because perma-buffing is great in that you don’t have to recast regularly, and finish stragglers. Take warriors for earlygame, but as soon as you have sufficient levels, start grinding Hunters and drop the warriors.
I hope that helps. One last thing, all I said is based on my playing experience, so I *might* be wrong in some cases. If so, do not hesitate to correct me.
H.O.E.
As Visstar alluded, don't think of them as two variants of the same class, think of them as separate unique classes. You can legit have a party with neither! You can have both, if it suits your style!
The Warrior will gain multiple attacks faster, and towards endgame you will find armor and weapons that only the Warrior can use. They can become Dragoncallers.
Personally, I find the Paladin's spells useful for two reasons. The buffs persist (until you visit an inn). Saves your magic users' spellpoints! There is a very useful Pally spell late game that stops random encounters. Secondly, you don't need to worry about the Paladin's INT score (until the game forces you to) as you will have more than enough to cast all the buffs and have some left for healing by endgame - and even more so if you have a bard! Paladins cannot become Dragoncallers.
As pointed out, the benefits of the Warrior tend to fall off towards endgame. Actually, by the first major grinding point, they stop being useful as it really requires that you keep a distance! Most of us tend to rely on "Further Foe" for midgame grinding, and at that point a ranged hunter or rogue (critical hits) or a bard (horns) are more beneficial than the Warrior.
But, as you'll see sprinkled throughout the walkthroughs and guides - YMMV.
I've played various configurations. So far the most power-gamy setup I've played seems to be Paladin, Hunter (becomes DC), Bard, Rogue, and 3 casters. I'm slowly working on a playthrough to give the Monk another look but that class has befallen the same fate as the Warrior, as ATM I'm trying to keep a distance!
It took me a while to figure this out, but my ideal party as described elsewhere had warrior (becomes D.C. with Silversword). I figured a hunter would be just as good.
In fact, I found my ideal party had a D.C. with the Staff of Storms. With its range, the DC can stay out of melee, adopt the Offense stance, and do 20,000+ damage per round with multiple attacks. That's the best reason I know to take a warrior over a hunter.
The Silversword then goes to the monk, giving that character multiple critical hits per round.
BTW, re. Critical hits: there are many monsters later in the game that can't be critically hit, making the hunter a spare part. Against those monsters, the monk should switch back to knuckledusters.
I meant powergaming pre-expansion, as it appears the OP probably doesn't have it. (If you're reading this, you should get it! It's not much and the extra content is well worth it.) At the grind points, when I would "further foe" it was helpful to have the hunter (and hidden rogue) take one out from a distance. It was particularly satisfying to have my ranged hunter take out a spellcaster before they got into casting range!
I admit, the only reason I chose the hunter for DC was because his skill was the one I could afford to lose. What really made my party feel "powergamy" was the three casters. By the end of the original content, with the help of the Bard, I never ran out of SP - unless I was grinding Ridge Fault, and even that took forever to go through them all! Every battle was a combination of "Further Foe" and the strongest group attack spell with the Hunter and Rogue range-attacking, Bard using horns, and Paladin defending. By the time I could stand toe-to-toe with the Ridge Fault baddies,
Fair enough, and I agree that in the original scenario, a hunter is superior in most ways to a warrior. One of these days, I'll play through the whole game with a hunter just to say I did it.
Question: if you have three casters, your hunter must have been in one of the melee spots. Did that create any problems?
No problems at all! The Hunter's armor choices are about like the Bard's. I kept the Hunter in 2nd position. After the transition, I moved the DC down to 4th, it felt like he should be with the 3 gnome casters (Yes, I went all out with the powergamy spamming).
Armor is important but I found the most important thing for AC late game is just to spam that DEX on level-ups! Everything else stops at 18 or 25 (as class requirements necessitate) - except for Luck for my three casters, which I stopped at 30 because I never did get a definitive answer as to whether it, too, maxes out at 24!
I always went with Dex and Con until I couldn't anymore, then went with STR (for melee) or INT (for casters).
On a "modern" game setting, on creation I would max out Con and Dex (for casters, including Pally, Con and Int, then Dex), and the rest on whatever the prime stats are, in order to get closer to the levelup limits. On level ups I would do Constitution first (Int for Casters, excluding Pally), then Dex, then whatever was required further. Once everything opened up, Dex all the way! I don't even bother taking Con to 24 because by that point in the game extra HP don't matter, either the enemy will stomp you or you'll stomp it.
I'd sure like to have an answer to the Luck stat's usefulness after 24, though, if any certain game creator is reading this...
subtle ;-)
Luck...
- = % chance for double damage upon hitting
- increases the chance that a chest trap does not fire
- increases the chance for successful saving throws
- increases the chance that trap damage is mitigated by 50%
- increases the chance that spell damage is mitigated by 50%
Kind regards
Mario
subtle ;-)
Touché!
Do the benefits continue to build past 24 or does it have the +10 benefit max like other ability scores?
Do the benefits continue to build past 24 or does it have the +10 benefit max like other ability scores?
I think it maxes out at 24 or 25 for cn and iq, but DX-related initiative, death threshold and LK benefits DOES continue to improve beyond. (For death threshold, if your health is = your negative CN, you die)
I did that as well. TBH, only my paladin could equip it, since I no longer bring in Warriors.
subtle ;-)
Touché!
Do the benefits continue to build past 24 or does it have the +10 benefit max like other ability scores?
For saving throws / mitigating damage, the bonus (Luck - 14) is taken.
For doubling the damage and chance of finding loot, the "raw" Luck value of a member / sum of the whole party is used, not the bonus.
kind regards
Mario
I’m avoiding having to worry about stats by playing a classic game, where the game makes these decisions for me. ;)
BTW re. the downsides of a paladin, this play through reminds me that Paladin spells are VERY expensive, and paladins are slow to acquire spell points. Right now I’m refusing to pay 30,000 gold for Sodar’s Recall because my paladin doesn’t have enough SP to cast it anyway.
