Rogue useless ? - ID: 239
FORUM: Gossip - The rusty dagger tavern
This topic was started by mike32 on 26/12/2011, 12:48:40
What's the main advantage of a rogue over the other classes ?
I'm finding it quite useless until now. (my rogue is a low level one)
For criticals, Hunter are way better because they score critical without having to hide (2 times more than a rogue ?)
For opening lock, Conjurer with "Trap Zap" is better because it always works (no minigame here to avoid firing traps).
For disabling trap, Conjurer with "Trap Zap" is the only way to disable temporarily a trap.
For looking for secret passage, Conjurer with "Minor Revelation can do it too.
So what are the advantages of having a rogue in the party ?
Will my party be able to avoid traps better with a rogue ?
Im at lvl 12 and I'm also finding my rogue a bit underwhelming. I never use his lock pick skill, and his trap awareness is substitutable. I'm thinking about replacing him with another hunter, a paladin or a warrior. What do you think?
Petrov.
My chars are level 9 and I have to agree on the rogue. I'd say he's the most underwhelming and my casters more than cover his detect and disarm abilities. Even UI-wise, he's annoying because I can't use 'repeat commands' to alternate between hide in shadows and attack from shadows.
Bottom-line, I'm thinking about swapping my rogue out also.
By the way, my rogue uses the Thief Dagger, so it's not like he's suffering from poor equipment. He can hit with 100+damage from shadows, but it just takes too many turns (including failed hiding) to deliver compared to the almost 50% crits of my hunter at long range or the 175dmg from my two warriors.
Petrov.
I still don't love my rogue, but I have to say I'm digging him a bit more after finding the 'Thief Dagger' in the Burial Mound. 5d10+20 damage and +2 to Hit. Yum!
First, every party should have one. The trick is your party setup and position of the characters in your group. The first four slots should always be these classes Warrior, Monk, Hunter, Bard, Paladin with slot 5 reserved for the Rogue and lastly, Slots 6 and 7 should be your Mages. Your Rogue's main function is to take out "bosses" that are over 20' in distance from the party. If you set this character up correctly, then by level 10 they should be pulling their own weight.
I'm going to be writing a Rogue guide so keep an eye out for that...
~Veerwing
First, every party should have one. The trick is your party setup and position of the characters in your group. The first four slots should always be these classes Warrior, Monk, Hunter, Bard, Paladin with slot 5 reserved for the Rogue and lastly, Slots 6 and 7 should be your Mages. Your Rogue's main function is to take out "bosses" that are over 20' in distance from the party. If you set this character up correctly, then by level 10 they should be pulling their own weight.
I'm going to be writing a Rogue guide so keep an eye out for that...
Veering, but why use a rogue for that when you can use a bow wielding hunter with higher crit percentage, no need to spend a turn hiding in shadows and crit from much longer distances?
Petrov.
First, every party should have one. The trick is your party setup and position of the characters in your group. The first four slots should always be these classes Warrior, Monk, Hunter, Bard, Paladin with slot 5 reserved for the Rogue and lastly, Slots 6 and 7 should be your Mages. Your Rogue's main function is to take out "bosses" that are over 20' in distance from the party. If you set this character up correctly, then by level 10 they should be pulling their own weight.
I'm going to be writing a Rogue guide so keep an eye out for that...
Veering, but why use a rogue for that when you can use a bow wielding hunter with higher crit percentage, no need to spend a turn hiding in shadows and crit from much longer distances?
Agreed. A hunter in the 5th slot with a bow is far more effective IMO. At high levels, its pretty much a sure kill of a distance enemy every round.
Response:
It really depends on your party's make-up and what classes you're utilizing. I like to have a balanced party as it allows me to explore the game and not have to rely on Magic Users consuming large quantities of Harmonic Gems because they are forced to cast spells for classes that I'm lacking and that I could utilize a "skill" for; i.e. Open Locks, Disarm Traps, detect secret areas in the game (Perception skill), etc.
I think and use my Hunter like this, that his job is to take out those NPCs that have too many hitpoints and are too close and are within 10' of the party. A hidden Rogue with a Throwing Star can critically hit just the same and sneaking up on a NPC and attacking it while my Hunter is busy attacking close ranged targets (and taking them out single handidly) is more effective (IMO). I'm also not using any arrows either, so I save those for the tough battle. Yes, the Hunter can attack with a Bow (at anything) and you can put him/her in the 5th slot but what other characters are you filling up in slots 1-4? I would suggest using your suggested battle technique when squared off against groups of magic-using monsters that are far way from the party. When faced with melee combantants (which is the majority of your battles), have the Hunter use a melee weapon (like a Steel Scimitar) and conserve on arrows...
Realize that the Hunter gets a DX bonus and has high hitpoints for one main reason, to become a "missed" attack target and to be able to take a beating from monsters within the 10' foot range. Hunters also get ST as one of their Main Stats because it effects "melee" damage (and not ranged damage). Your better off going with "chance" and letting the Hunter get attacked (and missed) versus other party members taking a beating then hiding the Hunter away in a valuable character slot (i.e. slots 5-7). The Rogue is the only character that can advance on a different group of monsters while the other party members are forced to fight within combat range. The Rogue is also the only class that can avoid damage altogether by "hiding" which he/she won't get attacked by area effect spells. If you're overwhelmed with melee opponents, you have so many different strategies that you can use that it all comes down to this, in how many turns can you dispatch a group of combatants?
Also, keep in mind that the Hunter and Rogue are the only two classes that can Critically Hit. I like to have both in tow and utilize my Hunter with both melee and ranged weapons. Luckily, the game is versitile and gives you tons of different options for battle scenarios. Right now, with how I have my party made-up I'm breezing through battles and am able to fight through virtually anything with "no death" count at the end of the battle sequence.
What's super cool about this game is that you can create and DO anything that you want. If you want a Barbarian Conjurer partied with a Gnome Paladin and High-Man Warrior, then go for it! Ultimately, I guess it all totally boils down to your game play, style and what you think is going to work/not work...
~Veerwing
The hunter doesn't get multiple attacks which makes any damage bonuses essentially useless at higher levels. Also at high levels, the hunter critically hits almost every time which also makes damage a moot point. There is really no reason to have a hunter use a melee weapon when his bow kills practically every time.
IMO you're much better off dropping the rogue (useless) and adding another fighter (I have a warrior, monk and paladin). Or, you could add another mage. At higher levels, the spells which replicate what a rogue does don't cause a significant drain on spell casters. Certainly far less than the spell points gained by adding a third magic user.
Party creation is really up to the player. If you're going to have a Rogue in the party, then all my responses are on how to utilize that class effectively. If you have a work-around, then great... One thing that I think is ironic is that the majority of you guys that are posting "I Need Help!" are the same one's that can't find secret doors and passages. And this is attributed because there is a lack of a Rogue in the party. :twisted:
My mention of arming the Hunter with an adequate weapon is that a Scimitar is a pretty good melee weapon. Your Hunter hitting a monster with a melee weapon versus a bow is really dependent on what Race you created that character with along with all of the Stats. I wrote about the Hunter class in another guide and suggested techniques on the Ranged Hunter versus the Melee Hunter. The majority of party make-ups will have a Melee Hunter so why not arm him/her with the best weapon possible? Overall, you're probably going to get more toHits with a melee weapon than a Bow (unless you're an Elf in the mid-level range).
By the way, I can just see a level 15 Rogue square off against a level 15 Hunter...
Round # 1, Rogue hides... Hunter fires an arrow at nothing. Round # 2, Rogue critically hits... Hunter dead. Bow and arrows useless.
Can we say, "Future update - Hunter Bow/Arrow nerf?"
~Veerwing
Party creation is really up to the player. If you're going to have a Rogue in the party, then all my responses are on how to utilize that class effectively. If you have a work-around, then great... One thing that I think is ironic is that the majority of you guys that are posting "I Need Help!" are the same one's that can't find secret doors and passages. And this is attributed because there is a lack of a Rogue in the party. :twisted:
Spells find secret doors just as well as a rogue does.
My mention of arming the Hunter with an adequate weapon is that a Scimitar is a pretty good melee weapon. Your Hunter hitting a monster with a melee weapon versus a bow is really dependent on what Race you created that character with along with all of the Stats. I wrote about the Hunter class in another guide and suggested techniques on the Ranged Hunter versus the Melee Hunter. The majority of party make-ups will have a Melee Hunter so why not arm him/her with the best weapon possible? Overall, you're probably going to get more toHits with a melee weapon than a Bow (unless you're an Elf in the mid-level range).
By the time your characters are mid-level, they all hit pretty much all the time. This difference is insignificant compared to the bow allowing ranged attacks. Why would the majority of party makeups have a melee hunter? Who cares about damage with a hunter when they critical hit almost every time at high levels?
By the way, I can just see a level 15 Rogue square off against a level 15 Hunter...
Round # 1, Rogue hides... Hunter fires an arrow at nothing. Round # 2, Rogue critically hits... Hunter dead. Bow and arrows useless.
Irrelevant since they'll never actually fight each other.
Can we say, "Future update - Hunter Bow/Arrow nerf?"
Why would something be nerfed unless it was really powerful?
Whoa.. Chill folks.. Opinions are opinions as even veerwing has stated himself..
I personally use a melee hunter as i see no reason why he should be in slot 5 upwards using a bow..? Who would be my 4th row character? I dont see why it should be a rogue as they could only attempt a crit every 2nd round.. Where as a hunter in 4th can melee every round.. A bard in 4th imo is pointless as mine uses his horns mostly.. Which can be used from further back so not wasting a melee slot.. So unless having a heavy hitter i.e. monk, warrior or maybe a paladin in 4th, which i already have in slots 1,2,3 and i dont see why i should double up on any class that isnt one of my two casters... I see a hunter as a natural 4th slot melee..
But that, and this is te important thing that people seem to be forgetting, is how i choose to play.... Veerwing is offering his own opinion and pretty damn well on how to best utilise the classes.. Its up to you if you take that advice, even bther to read it.. Or utilise the info in any way you see fit to..
Also i suspect the rogue v hunter thing was kind of a joke.. He clearly plays online games where things gets nerfd alot based on pvp over powering.. Which is nigh on iirelevant to actual game play..
Oh the time ive played a mmo to see my class get nerfd to death because in pvp its too powerful only to find that in the course of the pve game, you know the one you actually play most its now useless....
Titansiege
"cant sleep :("
As an additional.. My party is as follows and im enjoying good success with this team... There is so far only one group of monsters that cause me issues.... Bt then when 10 monsters all fire an AE paralyse at you... Grrr hate em..
Dwarf Warrior
Dwarf Paladin
Hobbit Monk
Barbarian Hunter
Highman Bard
Highman Con/mage/sorc/wiz
Highman Mage/Con/Wiz
Yes yes, i forgot how much more exp a wiz needs over a sorc... Should have remembered that from bards tale :)
But and this point is mentioned so often esp by veerwing himself.. Thats how i choose to play... Tats how i have fun.. His way might not work for me.. Or calmrider, or gumshoe or whatever his nme is :) play how you want.. Veer isnt telling you how tomplay, but i bet his guides have helped loads of newbies.. Bt i bet not all of em follow everything he says..
Read, learn then forge your own path!
Titansiege
"bet he is right about those missing the secret doors thing tho"
I apologize if I sounded combative. That wasn't my intent. I just don't see why anyone would take being able to kill one enemy at 10' each round over being able to kill one enemy at any distance. IMO this is especially usefull in going against Orc Shamen. They don't advance, so if they are beyond 30', I can just pick them off with my hunter. It works well for other spell casters and summoners as well, since I may not always be able to advance on them. By level 20 or so, he was my most powerful non-spellcasting character.
I have essentially the same party makup as you (a bit higher level as my casters are Arch Mages), but with the bard (melee weapon equiped, but effectively useless) and hunter (bow) switched around.
I ditched my rogue for a warrior. Now I have pally/war/mon/Hun/bar plus two casters. I do switch the hunter to ranged often. I'd keep him ranged all the time but I don't want to dealnwith running out of arrows.
I've gone for war/monk/bard/hunter/hunter/caster/caster.
Interestingly, I was checking out the archmage wiki entry for Bardstale and it was noted tht it's most efficient from an xp perspective to progress your way to archmage as follows:
1. conjurer/magician
2. Sorc
3. Wizard
4. Magician/conjurer
5. Archmage
As opposed to getting the magician/conjurer complete second...
<URL url="http://bardstale.wikia.com/wiki/Archmage">http://bardstale.wikia.com/wiki/Archmage</URL>
I suppose this strategy holds true for silversword, so I intend to progress this way. Any thoughts?
Petrov.
I just finished Castle A, so i think my single class chars are like level 16.
1) Is it too 'late' in game to swap out my rogue?
2) I have a warrior, paladin, bard, hunter (ranged), 2 casters. If it's not too late to switch, I'm thinking about another ranged hunter or a monk. The only reason I'm considering Monk is because I see them listed in so many other party makeups on here. What are monks good at? Are they crit machines like hunters? At the stage of the game I'm at, I'm partial to my physical damage dealers to be more about crit % than raw damage.
Monks are raw melee damage... Pus mine has the lowest ac of anyone in my team clocking around -27 iirc.. She does some fearsome damage which is only going to get better.. 7d4? Damage at present iirc multiply that by 8 ish attacks and add her damage mod 8 times..
Problem is, they have lower hps than hunters and warriors and such.. But once you have their dex up a bit their AC plummets.
Titansiege
Monks start really slow, and they don't get a lot of HP, but as has been said, they have a very low AC (improves by 1 per level plus any Dex bonuses) and do a lot of damage at high levels. My monk has -53 AC and does ~700 damage each round. That being said, you'd be able to level them up very quickly where you are so it may be worth it. Ultimately your monk will only be about 4-5 levels behind which isn't too bad.
Thanks for monk feedback guys! I think I'm leaning towards a 2nd hunter over monk. Am I crazy? Seems like a physical damage chat that has high crit % vs high damage is better at higher levels?
Thanks for monk feedback guys! I think I'm leaning towards a 2nd hunter over monk. Am I crazy? Seems like a physical damage chat that has high crit % vs high damage is better at higher levels?
At high levels, both the Monk and the Hunter both kill something pretty much every time. The Monk will have less HP but a better AC.
The advantage of the hunter is that you can give him a bow and he'll kill things that are more than 10' away. IMO this is pretty significant. The disadvantage is that you have to carry a bunch of arrows which takes up inventory. If you already have a hunter, I'd say its probably a toss-up. If you don't have a hunter, go with that. Another possible option would be a 3rd magic user.
Thanks for tips.
The only reason I'm not doing a 3rd caster is the gold cost (new spells). 2 casters is leaving me poor enough that I can't use all the runes that I'd like to.
Hunters are cheap and can still melee if needed, ESP as a barb.
