Dragoncaller discussion & tips - ID: 1063: Difference between revisions
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FORUM: Gossip - The rusty dagger tavern
This topic was started by ez1 on 11/04/2013, 16:49:18
Thanks ez1, I'd been to the coastlands before but with no fixed encounters found it tough to grind. Love that its opened up and has six fixed encounter spots now...
Where are the fixed encounters? I haven't noticed them.
Zeus, they are all along the rivers near the tower.
On the topic of character class to DC, I'm hugely disappointed that all the special assets/skills of the monk are lost, AC boost from level and extra hits by fist and foot. The monk class has always been one of my favorites throughout all the old RPG games, Wizardry...faerie monks. Would probably make DC alittle over powered but would've been interesting play. Would have been nice to offset the low hp by training up the DC, but without the additional skills carried over, probably not worth loosing the damage by direct damage if you had a monk in your party.
Overall, it looks like the only really good options are hunters or rogues converted to DC, they both seem to keep all their prior skills. Maybe thief with 99% master thief skill converted to DC might be a little over powered, as he automatically hides at the beginning of each battle and thus avoids all damages from both attack and spells and can already hit up to 90 ft with crit.
My monk was only level 17 when I ditched him, so I was not able to test that conversion, but the warrior keeps his number of attacks (and I think is also a good choice), so I assumed the monk kept his attacks (and ac) as well. Are you saying he keeps neither? He should at least keep his attacks unarmed and dmg I would think!
Since we don't yet know much about the new Dragoncaller (DC) character class that arrives with the expansion, I thought I'd start up a strategy and discussion thread.
What is a DC?
I think the idea is that a shift in the workings of magic in the world, caused by the arrival of dragons, allows those that were not previously imbued with magical ability to find a new calling. But this is just my speculation.
Qualifier to change:
Apparently most classes can change into the new DC class, with the exception of classes that currently have spell points (as far as I could tell). Your current casters and Paladin cannot change to a DC. Everyone else probably can.
I am sure there is a level requirement, since the spells are on a level or better than Archmage spells, but I do not know what that is (EDIT: level 20 needed)
What you get for changing:
The character will keep most of their current abilities (EDIT: exception -- bard does not keep songs, monk does not keep natural AC) and get some new spells that are quite good, but will have very limited spell points to cast these spells. You will gain hp and sp as you progress levels, in the same manner as an existing caster would, but will not see 1k spell points like you might if you worked up your existing archmages. You will not be able to use any equipment other than spellcaster eq, and apparently the silversword as well.
Who to change: Well this was a struggle for me, so I tried each one out to see what they looked like (reloading my game after checking them out) before finally settling on one character to change. I was pretty happy with my party dynamic as it was, but I think you will need and want a DC in the group, so bite the bullet and make one.
Overall, if you think a character has reached the pinacle of his/her abilities, that might be a good choice for a dragoncaller.
Choices:
Warrior: I only have one in my party, and he is one of the few characters that can do any real damage attacking if I find something immune to magic and criticals. This combined with AC, I decided it was risky to change him. The DC warrior DOES keeps his number of attacks though, so if you can find a decent weapon and work down the ac, it could work.
Hunter: once he gets to 99% critical, he is really not advancing any more. Switching, you end up with a caster that can critical hit. You lose range from the bow, but picking up some thunderbolts or other stackable ranged weapons could still allow him to hit monsters 30' away from the back row. This is what I ended up choosing.
Bard: I had so many awesome horns that you cannot use once switching, that I could not do this switch. The horns of fury, sodar (wow!!!), and arsyth are particularly nice. Also the songs did not work once switched. If you do not have a lot of horns, this move might make sense (edited from when we thought bards retained songs)
Rogue: hiding and casting looked pretty appealing, but the expansion notes say there is a master thief ability that I would like to at least check out first. Changing would help this guys hp problem though! (not much of a problem in actuality, since he almost never gets hit while hidden, just looks funny being so much lower than the other characters)
Monk: I ditched my monk long ago, but if he keeps his ac (edit:apparently does not) and attacks/damage (he does), this would be a great choice. The new levels would improve his hp, he wouldnt need the eq to do good attacking damage, and he gains a ton of versatility.
The dragoncaller spells (and my dragoncaller is level 12 as I write this) that are particularly good so far in limited testing
Dragon Tooth (level 1): right off the bat, a nice damage spell to motivate you to try this out (200-800 dmg to group) at a cost of 15 spell points.
Dragon Flight (level 2): this flight spell looks important
Great Tattoo (level 4): brings ALL targets to 10' range, where your critical hitting, stoning front row can chew them up
Dragons Fury (level 5): 400-1600 all targets
I've been using "great tattoo" quite a bit in the first round - it draws all the targets in and then the shortened range dc -hunter and rogue can get their criticals in on the second round, along with the silversword wielding bard and stone blade wielding paladin able to get attacks in both rounds. Seems to work pretty well, at least in the Coast Lands.
FWIW, changing my bard over, songs or no, worked well specifically in the realm of spell points, as she already had a rather ludicrous INT. When I tried it with a fighter type, the lack of starting INT crippled SP production as I leveled.
Made myself a new bard, and he's doing just fine, thanks. ;)
Good point on the int. My hunter had around 20 to start with and is now at 26, and seems to be getting 14 or so sp per level now, so it seems to work for now, but obviously still quite low overall compared to the other casters
Interesting. This is not how the DC creation/conversion worked in the play test, however Mario may have changed it for the real expansion. That might explain a couple of hiccoughs in the release. I'm sure he'll get them fixed,though.
If the DC retains all the characteristics of his previous class, what does it matter which characters you change? And why not change all who are eligible to change?
Well, I thought about that, why not convert them all?
1. Cannot use any of the original classes equipment (horns, armor, weapons). My mages are a good 20 ac points off my front line for instance, and they have really great equipment (14 ac robes, 7 ac gloves, mitres, 40 dex, etc..)
2. Stops progression and new skills from that class (new thief skills, additional attacks from leveling, no further skils we dont know about yet)
That being said, you may still want to convert characters later on once you feel you have reached that point.
If the DC retains all the characteristics of his previous class, what does it matter which characters you change? And why not change all who are eligible to change?
My mages from pre-expansion are pretty close to the AC of my non-mages, so if my hunter were able to keep her crit chance, it does seem like it would be all gravy to change her over, even if she ends up with but a few dozen SP. The extra HP from the reset leveling would more than offset. If she loses access to bow, her crit rating is so good I'd just ditch the dragon bow/arrows and go to throwing weapons that mages can use; a stack of 10 should last for any reasonable battle.
When I migrated my bard to DC, I did so with the full expectation she'd lose her songs. The 50 levels of semi-preferential INT gain made that a good trade re: SP generation. If she gets her songs back, that def strikes me as a bit overpowered.
DC class is pretty powerful no matter how you look at. The 7th level spells include a spell that can do up to 3k hp damage to all targets if you are not in a dungeon. Bard gets a lot of its power from horns, I personally don't think having the songs really makes the character more powerful than say a converted hunter or monk.
I personally don't think having the songs really makes the character more powerful than say a converted hunter or monk.
The reason I say it's overpowered is because the only reason I have a bard is for the songs; if my DC has the songs, I free up another party slot I can use for a dragon... or another DC. :)
I agree though -- I think it's just as overpowered for any class if they keep too many of their base characteristics. I like erring on the side of taking away nearly everything since the target class is so powerful in its own right.
The bard songs will not be available once changed to a DC.
The fact that the former bard still shows up when hitting "Play Song" is a bug that will be fixed. The songs themselves should not be available.
Kind regards
Mario
So the bard is the only character to retain no skills or abilities from switching classes. I am sure there is a reason for that, but that probably means if you like having a bard, don't switch him/her, as there will be better choices.
My bard has 26 int currently, so I dont see a huge advantage that jtoomey talks about above with having the super high int (I am guessing he means 35-40 range) for a great spell point basis. I am not sure if you get more spellpoints leveling a DC versus an archmage, they seem to get around the same right now at 25-40 int for me. In other words, my archmage at 40 int get around max 14, and my DC also gets max 14 at 27 int. Is anyone seeing bigger numbers than that?
In other words, my archmage at 40 int get around max 14, and my DC also gets max 14 at 27 int.
You are probably spot on, there, regarding diminishing returns. My non-bards were around 20, and my bard around 35, and it seemed there was a non-trivial difference, but that may have been perception.
I tried both bard and hunter. My hunter had 19 int before the change - but as all other attributes were over the 25/18 my level ups always raised int so he was at 25 int after level 7. That means he only missed a potential 21 sp - a permanent handicap. But that is nearly erased by having my bard singing spirit chant. I found not having a bard with spirit chant a much worse handicap for my dc because he cast so infrequently.
Also, my hunter had 33 dex vs 22 for my bard. I think casting the spell early is a huge benefit - the big weakness of horns IMO is that they are used at the end of a combat round...
Downsides - I DO miss having instant death from the bow at any range - a range 40 on the thunderbolts doesn't do much for my hunter that converted. And the hunter's THAC0 went from -31 to -15, so he misses much more often than he used to.
But all in all I think converting the hunter is much better than converting the bard...
Interesting. I've just been farming the inferno waiting for the lost forest fix - and there I try to kill everything in the first round rather than risking a drain. Heading to coastlands now. Are there any other areas that the expansion opens up?
The coast lands were actually open prior to the expansion, just more of it is now available with the expansion. The monsters I think are easier (but a lot thicker) and worth a lot more exp than in the inferno, and the dropped eq seems to be the same. The best section seems to be in the new walkway by the water area -- if you want a lot of encounters with larger numbers.
Thanks ez1, I'd been to the coastlands before but with no fixed encounters found it tough to grind. Love that its opened up and has six fixed encounter spots now...
What are the coast lands everyone has been talking about? I've finished everything prior to the expansion (waiting for apple update on that), but I don't see any coastlands on the map.
Many thanks!
I think IQ and CN are capped at 24. So going above 24 doesn't give you any extra SP or HP.
What are the coast lands everyone has been talking about? I've finished everything prior to the expansion (waiting for apple update on that), but I don't see any coastlands on the map.
You can get there out of the east gate of the market district, which opens up when you kill the baddie in the inferno
What are the coast lands everyone has been talking about? I've finished everything prior to the expansion (waiting for apple update on that), but I don't see any coastlands on the map.
Hugely helpful. Thanks!
Any INT points over 24 do not add to the max SP per level, unless Mario has changed the way leveling works specially for DCs. It is unlikely Mario changed the base game mechanics specially for the new class.
I wanted to revisit this. After I got my rogue up to full master thief, I changed him to DC in addition to my hunter. He can still hide & crit and can still pick any lock. He can't equip Dietrich anymore but with 99% thief mastery he really doesn't need it. So now I have two AMs and two DCS, and both my DCs crit. The DC change also helped out the rogue's HP.
He cant use the assassine, but with the firestaff he is still fairly deadly. Anyone see any downsides to this?
I had considered doing the rogue as well now that he has full master thief, but I am really partial to the Assassine, and it will critical regardless of if the rogue is hidden or not. The hp are low, as you mentioned, but with boots of speed he is at -86 ac and hidden all the time -- it is almost never a factor. The other thing is the staff does not hit as hard, and some mobs where you cannot critical this becomes a factor as well.
EZ1, you were right she did indeed keep her #of hits and dmg from unarmed, but lost her to ac bonus. Now i have a delimna, do i add her back or keep the newly trained thief with full master thief converted to dc? It would be easy if she kept her ac, as i could've used her as a mule for stuff but without her ac bonus, i know need to gear her up more completely.
The way understand the compendium is that once IN gets to 24 the max SP you get when leveling tops out at 14. If you convert a character with lower IN because you focused on DX or LK, you get less SP per level until you get IN up to 24. So convert whatever eligible character you want after you get his IN to 24. Bards get to 24 easily, because IN is a primary for them, I think.
I’ve held off creating a Dragon Caller, but will have to make a decision soon. I was hoping to get some wise advice about which would be the best choice to convert to a DC (taking into account what you would gain and what you would lose, when you cast the old class aside). The candidates, and the pros and cons as I see them, are:
Level 60 Elf Hunter, 99% critical hit, HP 1429, AC -58, INT 24.
Pros
Would still critical hit.
A strong character at the top of their old class and could only get stronger.
Cons
Would lose the ability to use the Dragon Bow (very handy for long range attacks).
Level 51 Gnome Monk, hits 26 times, AC -88, INT 24.
Pros
Would still be able to hit 26 times. Are there many decent DC weapons to take advantage of this? I’ve had a quick look at using the Firestaff which allows a massive hit of a 13,000!
Would greatly benefit from the increase in levelling up, eventually taking the HP up to an acceptable number.
Cons
Would lose armour class (but I have some decent spell caster gear in the bank).
Couldn’t be used as a mule.
No unarmed combat bonus (although I’m not sure about this, as they still hit for 1400 without a weapon)?
I get the feeling the Hunter would be the safe choice, but I’d really like to make something of the Monk, but I’m not sure if it would work.
Also, once you have a DC where do you play them? Upfront with the muscle or at the back with the Mages and Rogues?
Decisions, decisions….
Thanks Mario for a fantastic game and all your hard work!
I believe the monk only retains his unarmed attacks, once u equip a weapon it is one attack. You may want to check that and then revert back to a save game first.
If you have a bard give him/her the bow. It is 100% critical, turning any rogue or bard into an instant hunter, and turn the hunter. With Boots of speed and a few runes and choice eq, you can leave him in the front row if you choose
Here's my two cents, and keep in mind I HAVEN'T finished the expansion, so I am not inferring what type of party we need to finish.
I had the same issue, and my choices were hunter and monk. I went with the monk, and though the monk loses the AC bonus, their attacks with weapon remain, and are absolutely devastating. Too bad the HP are so low...
BUT...funny thing, I had a high end hunter like you, and I hate to say this, but I have just stopped using her. The dragonbow was so important to me in the last game, but just not as critical to have the 90 damage in this expansion. So I probably wish I had the HP of the hunter converted, but not just one attack for these wicked weapons...so...
That's why I've posted about being a hopeless grinder. I am working up a new warrior to become a DC as my crusher. I have a level 75 from the first go round which I refuse to turn into a DC, because you still need melees here...my goals is to get to level 50 and then covert her over. That way, I get BOTH high HP's and all the attacks. If you haven't gotten started too far down the path, I'd do it. (And you can still experiment with the others, and keep saves in different slots...)
Yeah I had thought about the warrior conversion...should be pretty effective using staff of storms.
In truth though, as you mentioned, the hunter is almost the ideal conversion if you are only making one dc. He is super helpful early on up to finishing the regular game, but becomes almost obsolete later on with large numbers of baddies and ones that are immune to criticals
Missile weapons like the Firestaff and Staff of Storms are single hit weapons right? Even if you converted your Warrior over to DC, you can't do multiple attacks with missile weapons right? If that's the case there's no point in leveling up a warrior and just use your hunter as your DC.
SonnBoy - that is incorrect. (And if this is an error Mario, please delete my post and forget about it - without making a fix!)
My monk-turned DC is doing ridiculous 5 digit damage with both staffs, obviously WAY more with the Staff of Storms.
If there was the chance to get multiple staffs of storm, I'd probably abandon my melees in full, even if it meant losing access to force shields of forgus and some awesomely ruined armor. (No I wouldn't! I have to save my level 75 warrior for when Mario gets the juices going and works on the next expansion!) :)
The staff of storms and the firestaffs are extended range melee weapons, not missile weapons.
My warrior with the axe of souls is doing almost 7k per attack and 13k on an exceptional hit, I didn't do the math but how much better would the staff of storms be? And I thought that was a lot of damage!
If Warriors can get multiple hits with the FireStaff or Staff of Storms, then WarriorDC is the way to go. If Monks only can get multiple hits with unarmed combat, then it's still Warrior.
Wow I wished I knew that when I converted, I used a Hunter and he only get's one shot with his Firestaff. The WarriorDC attack 20x with a FireStaff or Staff of Storms is just plain crazy.
Warrior it is! As a DC he hits 30 times giving 15k damage and already has a decent amount of HP.
Off to the Old Bonehouse to kick some undead butt and grind some exp. points.
Thanks for the advice.
