View source for Sorcerer, iOS Wizardry Clone - ID: 1593

==== FORUM: [[Gossip - The rusty dagger tavern]] ====
'''This topic was started by chrlpolk on 27/09/2019, 14:22:06'''

<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 27/09/2019, 14:22:06</div>

Has anyone played these game series Sorcerer for iOS yet?  Like Silversword, I keep this on my iPhone!<br/>
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<URL url="https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sorcerer-1/id302868980">https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sorcerer-1/id302868980</URL><br/>
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(THEY ARE FREE!!! As of now.   Don't know if this is permanent or if price will be added eventually.)<br/>
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They play just like Wizardry 1-3, wire frame and all!  They are clones, but not exact ports.  Level design, plots, NPC's are not the same, but follow a very similar motif as the Wizardry game it's based on.  That's part of the fun!  Since it's originally in Japanese, some of the translation is rough, but serviceable.<br/>
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If you haven't played it before, and you're fans of Wizardry, get it on your iOS device!<br/>
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Some general tips I learned the hard way:<br/>
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On character creation, if I don't like the roll, I shake the device and it "rerolls".  I spent a lot of time going back-and-forth through rejected characters before figuring that one out!<br/>
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The game auto-saves after every battle.  If a character dies while in battle, you can close out of the app and restart, and you'll be at your last save point.<br/>
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The game comes with a backup/restore feature in the settings.  If you get a horrible level-up that ruins your path to the class change you're aiming for, just restore to before you leveled up!  (Just don't forget to backup before you visit the inn.)<br/>
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If you've played this cool series, tell me what you thought of it?  I don't code, like at all, but this app makes me want to learn so that I could do better English versions!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by icetear on 27/09/2019, 14:36:10</div>

Thanks for the recommendation.<br/>
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As a sidenote: I would almost kill for a Wizardry 7 iOS clone ;-)<br/>
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So if you ever learn programming...<br/>
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kind regards<br/>
Mario

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 27/09/2019, 15:44:19</div>

They don't compare to your Silversword game, of course, but how can you compare two legendary series like Bard's Tale and Wizardry?? <br/>
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Sorcerer #1 and #2 are based on Wizardry 1 + 2, and they have the same class requirements and weapons and such, meaning your back 3 characters cannot attack.  For fans of the Wizardry series I recommend starting here, since you get the treat of comparing it to those games.<br/>
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Sorcerer #3 isn't available in the USA anymore, which is just as well because the translation is the roughest of all of them to where it's almost unfinishable.  (Ironic, since the first Wizardry games were hard on Japanese players due to Western culture references!)  From what I could gather it's a combo of Wizardry 3+4.  But it's got a lot wrong, poor weapon translations, etc.  I didn't finish it.  It introduces ranged weapons.<br/>
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Sorcerer #4 is a great starting point because it includes ranged weapons, more spells, updated attributes system, NPC's with word banks, and it's based on Wizardry 5.<br/>
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Sorcerer #5 is very loosely based on Wizardry 6 plot, and I mean very loose, and it's HARD because upper levels are nonstop teleport puzzles (and I don't mean the teleport spell!).<br/>
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And for Sorcerer #6 the author does something nice for those who finished Sorcerer #1!<br/>
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I really enjoyed your Silversword game, so as a programmer, I'd like to know your thoughts on the Sorcerer games, when you get around to playing them.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 27/09/2019, 20:22:55</div>

I went on the App Store to look for this and spent 20 minutes down the rabbit hole but could could not find it. Its it actually named "Sorcerer"? What's the name of the publisher/author?

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 28/09/2019, 03:47:50</div>

The author's name is "Death=Head & Co".<br/>
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They are listed with the scenario number like, "Sorcerer #1", so try searching that way (since Sorcerer is such a generic fantasy word).<br/>
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Again, I must warn (and shout with joy), it's extremely old school Wizardry!<br/>
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Edit:  You can try this address<br/>
<URL url="https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sorcerer-1/id302868980">https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sorcerer-1/id302868980</URL>

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 30/09/2019, 04:27:43</div>

Another tip:  The game auto-saves after using your map spell.  What I used to do, to help preserve the spell points, is after a battle (the game autosaves) cast the map spell.  Exit away from the app while the map spell is up (does not require "hard close", just return to the home screen).  When you go back in the app, it restarts, so choose "restart out party" and you will return to just after the combat with the game not logging your map spell use!<br/>
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In the later games (4-6) the option to search for hidden doors causes an auto-save whether or not you find one.  Safe way to autosave without relying on a risky combat.  (Casting a light spell searches for secrets in prior games.)

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 30/09/2019, 21:07:35</div>

Thanks, chrlpolk ....  I started playing this and am having a retro blast. I remember now how frustrating the game was. I've had to quit and start over again a couple of times, the game is so hard. Like Kobolds and skeletons on Level one, and then ninjas and vorpal bunnies that can kill with one blow on level two.<br/>
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The creator did a great job recreating the overall experience, but made some really dumb design decisions. E.g. I nearly broke my iPad shaking it to re-roll when creating creators (why not a "reroll" button???) and twice lost (as in, Where did it go???) a battle with Finnegan's Ghost because my knuckle brushed against the "Run" option while I was trying to press Fight or Parry. I seem to recall in the original, you chose Run as a combat option and had to process commands to run away. In this game, Run is immediate, not even an "Are you sure?" confirmation.<br/>
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Anyway, it's interesting enough to keep me occupied until ice tear comes out with another expansion.  :)

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 01/10/2019, 02:55:58</div>

Yeah, I've had my share of accidental runs!  The "shake" was likely made with iPhones in mind.  I finished the first two scenarios before I realize you could do that!  I was laying in bed, on the character creation screen, and I rolled 30 points!  I couldn't believe it!  So I sprung up with excitement and was like, "Why is it a 7 now?!"  That's how I found that out.  But by then I knew the initial points weren't really all that important, so long as I got at least 10 to max out the magic-related stat or Constitution.  That said, once I found out, "shaking" made creating new characters so much more convenient!  You can of course lug through the menus, create reject characters, steal their money...<br/>
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In these games, running was considered strategic.  So don't chance it fighting ninja and vorpal rabbits, run from those.  Fight the coins!  (They kept the bug where the coins do no damage!)  Likewise, don't feel the need to fight every enemy, picking and choosing fights was part of the gameplay experience.  Even if you're going for an evil team, you can run and still get credit for attacking the innocent.<br/>
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Remember to backup your game often, in case you get that situation where your run attempt fails, someone gets crit'd, and you accidentally hit the run button and it exits battle.  You can just restore from backup.  I did this constantly (yeah, I know it's cheating) and because of that virtually never had any use for money, because in these games 98% of your money went towards resurrections.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 01/10/2019, 03:14:47</div>

A starter hint for Sorcerer #1 -  At the start, run or turn skeletons.  Focus on fights where you can use the "sleep" spell - much better to-hit and double damage, makes clerics hit like fighters!  The ghost is difficult to hit and resistant to magic, so I wait until at least level 3.  Reach level 3-4 on all characters, then look for an elevator hidden in darkness.<br/>
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Take the elevator down to Level 2, and repeatedly go through the doors.  Run from everything except coins.  If you get caught in a fight after a failed run attempt, exit out of the app, restart the out party.  It will get a bit tedious, but those coins do give massive EXP and doing a bit of this will help tremendously in being able to survive the next floors!<br/>
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Finally, if you get stuck, look for Wizardry maps and walkthroughs.  The maps will NOT be the same, but similar in design.  Same with objectives, answers to riddles, etc.  For me, having all the, "Oh, this was like that!" moments was part of the good nostalgia!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 01/10/2019, 15:38:17</div>

Ah yes, the coins! Those, along with Murphy's Ghost and the Frost Giants (or was it the Cloud Giants?) got me through the game.<br/>
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The worst thing about Wizardry was the in-and-out aspect of it -- no matter how good you were, you couldn't stay all that long because you only had 9 of each level spell and some of them were crucial, like the map spell if you got lost. So if you ever got down to just one or two of certain spells, you had to leave. There was no way to regain spell points. I think it was the Bard's Tale that finally got that right, with resting in camp and the ability to use your spell points on any spell you wanted, even if that was 20 map spells.<br/>
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I've run a few times, but mainly when I'm almost out of spells. (BTW, running never gets you lost. I seem to recall in Wizardry that running could make you wind up quite far from where you started.)

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 01/10/2019, 15:39:11</div>

P.S. the map has a lot in common with the original, but different enough to get you lost!  :oops:

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 01/10/2019, 15:40:37</div>

P.P.S. icetear: How about doing a "Pool of Radiance" clone?  ;)

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 01/10/2019, 16:21:50</div>

Once I got wise about the Coin Farming on level 2 (which was in the original game, but I had forgotten about it until the rediscovery), I used that to fully upgrade.  Just for the sake of diversity, I used Knight, Samurai, Ninja and 3 Bishops.  Took full advantage of the backup/restore feature to make sure my characters gained the right attributes up by level 13.  I had considered maxing out all spells (having everyone learn both wizard and priest spells) but ultimately decided fighting coins wasn't that much fun!  It's totally unnecessary, and the only benefit is having extra castings of certain spells. like the map.  At a certain point, you're mostly fighting/turning or running.<br/>
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When you get to the lower levels there will be items that cast spells when used, it should note it in the item examination.  Of course, give those to your back three, since the first two games don't have ranged weapons.<br/>
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For maps, I would hit the home button while the map was still up, go back to the game without the spell point used.  It made me learn to get along without a map until I was lost or until I went to find secrets (if there's a large black space on the map, chances are, there's a way to get in there!).  There is an item which will cast the map, but while it's limited uses, you can get more after battles.  Once characters started learning Teleport, I fully explored each level, then the only thing I had to remember was how to get to the next stairs!  (And if you teleport into rock, immediately exit the app and restart the out party, same thing works for pits, traps and teleporters.)<br/>
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Another trick/cheat (and potential setback) is that the shop remains unchanged after you restore your game from a backup.  There's nothing unique in the shop you can lose, you will eventually come across the flame sword in battles for instance, so don't panic if you bought something, restore, and it's not in the shop.  (If you're not far in, you can reset all data, which will reset the shop, too.)  The trick is to backup your game, sell rare items to the shop, then restore your game.  Your restored game will have the items in your inventory, while the shop will still have the items too, which you can purchase and give to other members.  Repeating until everyone has the best weapons and armor is unnecessary until you get ready for that final plunge, though, because you will eventually just get more of them in battle.<br/>
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AND - I second the request for the Pool of Radiance clone!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by icetear on 01/10/2019, 20:45:00</div>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: Visstar</b><br>
P.P.S. icetear: How about doing a "Pool of Radiance" clone?  ;)
</div>

funny that you mention it. I am playing it right now (<URL url="https://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_two"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_real ... ection_two">https://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_two</LINK_TEXT></URL>).<br/>
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There are games that you might manage to create as a single developer... and there are the others.<br/>
The SSI titles - as well as Wizardry 6+ - are "the others" ;-) As much as I would like to play these games on a mobile device... I don't have the means of creating one of those.<br/>
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kind regards<br/>
Mario

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 10/10/2019, 21:05:02</div>

Well, I'll be! Thanks icetear! Even though they are exe files requiring me to install DOSBox on my Mac to play them, and even though I probably will never get around to doing it, since my iPad is the only thing I play games on, I still bought the collection. Maybe when I retire I'll play them.  :)

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 11/10/2019, 00:28:26</div>

I haven't used a Mac since my college days in late 1990's!  If you ever get to using the PC versions, there's a Gold Box Companion which is pretty neat with those older games!<br/>
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<URL url="https://gbc.zorbus.net/">https://gbc.zorbus.net/</URL><br/>
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Unfortunately it is PC exclusive.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 31/10/2019, 16:11:59</div>

Well, after quite a slog, my second team rescued my first team and defeated Deahtead six times. (*) I'm ready to move on and downloaded Sorcerer #2. However, I noticed that while there is a 1, 2, and 4, there is no 3. Is it just me or is that weird!?  :cry: <br/>
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* My first party, with six characters, set off a teleport trap and wound up stuck outside Daethead's office door before they were strong enough to face him. I had to build up a party of five that was strong enough to get through level 6, pick up one stranded party member, kill the evil wizard, and do it again five more times!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 05/11/2019, 16:37:18</div>

There are several reasons offered why #3 was taken off, but I can tell you the actual one, having played it partially.  The translation is just horrible!  As in, you can't finish it, what "clues" are there might as well not be, and even after you stumble on solutions by accident, it still makes no sense how the clue/solution are related.  Weapons are mistranslated, causing confusion especially with ranged weapons.  Characters are meant to be imported, the expected starting level is 20+.  You can make new characters that start at 1 and get slaughtered in the first fight, unless you use the pre-made characters and put new characters in the back row (and hope enemies don't use long range attacks or spells).  By the time I got to #3, I had already played the much improved #4, and just couldn't bear it.<br/>
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#2 is SO much better than #3.  Just like the first game, you can look at maps and clues of "Knight of Diamonds" and get a general idea of what to expect.<br/>
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You can import characters, but it knocks your characters back to level 1 in their current class and they lose any other class magics gained, so I typically just rolled new characters for each game.<br/>
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Let me know what you think once you get into it!<br/>
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Edit:  But if you just have to see for yourself, there are instructions online for how to change your region.  Change it to Japan, download the app, and change it back.  But seriously, the game is awful compared to the others, so don't beat yourself up if you quit after the first level and just jump into #4!<br/>
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Edit #2:  Also, take a moment to go into the System menu to find an online manual of the game, including a backstory and spell list!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 15/01/2020, 20:01:00</div>

Still haven't gotten around to Sorcerer 2, but I will.<br/>
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However, I played a game I can recommend called DOA (Dark of Alchemist). It really takes some getting used to. It's quirky! Basically, you are an alchemist and can use that skill to make weapons, armor, magic books, and food. Your biggest challenge is managing your inventory so you can make the items you need. Easy enough so far, but all the items you make wear out! So you are constantly having to make new armor, etc., as you explore, and often have to choose what item to throw away or leave behind since your inventory space is limited. As I said, it takes some getting used to, but it's fun once you get into it.<br/>
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It's free (ad supported). You can mostly skip the ads and play the game in airplane mode, but you will want to be online when facing a tough battle, because if you die in airplane mode, you will lose everything you are carrying. If you watch an ad, you can keep your inventory.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 19/01/2020, 03:55:31</div>

I've played that one!  It's a fun game that really focuses on inventory management, trying to get better components for better weapons, armor, and spells.  It's one of those games that's fun/addicting but after that newness wears off you find you're sludging through it because you want to complete it, even though it becomes a bit of a chore (repeating levels over and over and ditching before the boss fight in order to collect components).  But every stage you clear feels rewarding from start to finish!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 19/01/2020, 21:23:00</div>

Totally agree, there was a big learning curve, then you mastered it and it was fun for a while, then it got old fairly quickly and I finished just to finish it. <br/>
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Finally trying Sorcerer 2, and it’s tougher than #1. I quickly realized my party of five couldn’t do it, so I added a Bishop, trying to build him up, but he kept dying, so I tried something I’d never done before, convert a character to another class. <br/>
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I took a Level 15 or so Priest from #1 and changed him to a Bishop. It ruined all his stats, but he kept his 90+ hit points, and to my surprise kept Level 7 priest spells. This is a huge plus, since my original priest is in the 3rd melee slot. Having someone in the back able to case Cure Poison, Cure Paralysis, Refresh, and Apocalypse should make the party viable. At Level 1 he had terrible stats and couldn’t identify anything, but it was fairly quick getting him to Level 9 and he’s identifying things reasonably well now.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 22/01/2020, 04:25:33</div>

Class changing can bring a lot of great options!  Cross training is where it's at.  The way it works is you keep 1 use/level for each spell you've learned in that level (and you keep all spells you've learned).  Your stats go to the base minimum and your experience to 0, but you will quickly catch them back up.  So you can change a Priest to a Knight and have a Knight that starts out with charges of high level Priest spells (and gain more from level-ups), or change a Wizard to Knight for a Knight that can eventually cast both sides.<br/>
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I found it useful to have multiple characters learn Refresh (heals full HP and cures status).  So every class usually spends time as a Priest (meaning they cannot be Neutral alignment).<br/>
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On that note, there is no reason to ever choose neutral alignment!  All it does is block your options.  There was a catch in one Wizardry game where levels were alignment-restricted, forcing you to use alternate parties to get through those levels, but the clone series doesn't use that.<br/>
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Later in the series, I stopped creating Fighters.  By the time Priests become significantly limited in armor selection compared to Fighters, you're about ready to change them to a Knight anyway.  A Priest with a good strength and a mace hits almost as hard as a fighter with a sword, has almost as good HP gains at level-up, and you learn spells along the way!<br/>
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Because the first 13 levels are a breeze (once you find a good farming spot on a lower level), you should make an Elf priest, change to Wizard, then finally to Bishop.  This way, the Bishop has a full line of Priest spells (Bishops learn Priest spells slower than they do Wizard spells) and a good head start on the Wizard spells.<br/>
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Finally, the ninja!  Most times I just use a Hobbit thief, try to even out the ability scores on creation and save scum the level-ups to ensure the transition by level 13 (sooner, if at all possible!)  Because the Ninja has a nice critical hit ability, you want him attacking every turn, so no need for magic.  You COULD turn a Priest into a Ninja and have one more character to use Refresh, but I didn't find it necessary, especially since a thief is useful from the beginning for opening trapped chests.<br/>
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And of course, the other tricks from before.  Every time you return to town, do a system backup, and if you're not happy with a level up when you rest, restore the backup!  If a battle isn't going your way, exit the app and restart it.  When you cast the map spell, instead of closing the map, close the app - you will save that spell charge.  Same with pit traps, instead of closing the message that tells you, close the app.  I believe in this title that also works in teleporting into rock (although later games in the series fixes that one, and you'll have to restore from backup in that case).  The game "auto-saves" after every fight or after every out-of-battle spell cast.  Spell effects that affect the entire party (light, armor, etc.) vanish on reload, so other than looking for secret doors (light is needed) I didn't use them outside of battle.<br/>
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Alright that's enough!  I only intended to write a little something on the benefits of class changing.  As you can tell, I grew highly infatuated with this series, poor translations and all!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 05/02/2020, 19:42:55</div>

I'm 95% through Sorcerer 2 and the stupid bug that usually gives a character just one hit point on leveling up is driving me crazy!!  :evil: <br/>
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I'm restoring from backup and trying again but I've gotten 1 HP something like 20 times in a row! Grrr!!!!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 07/02/2020, 01:24:55</div>

The way hitpoint gains work is that every class has a set parameter per level.  (Like in D&D, fighters get 1d10 per level, so a level 5 fighter has 5-50 hitpoints.)<br/>
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At each level-up, the game re-rolls all hitdice (and adds Constitution bonus/level according to your new Constitution score).  If the result is higher than the character's current hitpoints, the character gets that gain; if it is lower, the character gets 1 hp.<br/>
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Getting a big HP gain doesn't actually boost you for the entire game, nor does getting a small gain hinder you for the entire game.  Ditto with Constitution bonuses.<br/>
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The game will continue to completely re-roll all hitdice for your class and level when you level up, so if you get a lousy gain this level, you're more likely to a get better one coming up - and vice versa.  There is really no need to save-scum for hitpoints unless you just want them now and don't want to wait for averages.<br/>
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NOW.  Class changing.  You keep your current hitpoints from your previous class, right?  The game re-rolls the hitpoints for your current class/level and naturally the result is lower than your current HP's.  So if you switch classes, particularly from a high HP class to a low one, you can expect +1 gains for a while.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 13/02/2020, 23:47:31</div>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: Visstar</b><br>
I'm 95% through Sorcerer 2
</div>

When you finish 2 and start on 4, let me know what you think of the (albeit few) new Quality of Life features.  For me, it completely made me rethink my party makeup.  Plus, I kept a notepad for conversation keywords, which I hadn't done for a game in about 20 years!<br/>
<br/>
(And again, don't feel bad about skipping 3, it's complete rubbish, and that's coming from someone obsessed with this series!)

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 14/02/2020, 23:26:37</div>

Thanks for the hit point explanation. I never knew Wizardry did that! I still felt like my Samurai got cheated on HP based on his 18 constitution, but I stopped worrying about it and finished off Zod-I-ac. (I spent a while having the samurai wander around alone till he picked up the 200k or so XP he needed to get Teleport and Nuclear first, then he teleported down to 6 and finished the job.)<br/>
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I thought the end was anticlimactic and by the time he finished, the 250,000 XP weren’t needed, and the chevron turned out to be pointless as well, since it wasn’t needed to move on. (Plus, aa a mage, he had no “Identify Monster” spell, so I didn’t even know I was fighting Zod-I-ac till he was dead!)<br/>
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Anyway, I’m on to 4 and several of my characters had either died or underperformed, so I replaced 3 of them. I made them all lawful so this time they can become priests or Bishops. <br/>
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The maze is a lot trickier than 1 or 2! I’m stuck with no way down to the basement right now and the only was I know it exists is by stepping on a square on  *LEVEL 1*  that teleported me without warning to certain death on Level 6. (Icetear was never that mean!) And the warlord’s secretary is completely ignoring me right now, so I’m farming the roof, killing ghosts till I save up the 25,000 he wants for the figurine. Maybe that unlocks something. <br/>
<br/>
Onward and downward!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 15/02/2020, 02:19:15</div>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: Visstar</b><br>
Thanks for the hit point explanation. I never knew Wizardry did that!
</div>

There was a document (called something like the "Wizisystem") that was like Silversword's compendium, where it gave in-depth analysis of game mechanics.<br/>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: Visstar</b><br>
I still felt like my Samurai got cheated on HP based on his 18 constitution, but I stopped worrying about it and finished off Zod-I-ac. 
</div>

You're not wrong!  The Samurai is on the Priest hitdice table (d8 rather than the fighter's d10).  <br/>
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Fighter, Lord = d10<br/>
Priest, Samurai = d8<br/>
Thief, Ninja, Bishop = d6<br/>
Mage = d4<br/>
<br/>
So by level 10, that 2hp difference between your Samurai and Fighter/Lord becomes 20 max hp difference...<br/>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: Visstar</b><br>
The maze is a lot trickier than 1 or 2! 
</div>

There are a lot more secret doors, and places where you have to get an item from an NPC to continue on.<br/>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: Visstar</b><br>
I’m stuck with no way down to the basement right now and the only was I know it exists is by stepping on a square on  *LEVEL 1*  that teleported me without warning to certain death on Level 6. (Icetear was never that mean!) 
</div>

Keep looking for secret doors!  The semi-frustrating thing is that I can SAY that their locations are somewhat obvious, but you won't realize that until you find it.  Then you look at the map and think, "Well, that was a pretty obvious spot for a secret door!"<br/>
<br/>
In one corner of the Level 6 room there is another teleporter.  Also, you will come to eventually appreciate that Level 6 warp!<br/>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: Visstar</b><br>
And the warlord’s secretary is completely ignoring me right now, so I’m farming the roof, killing ghosts till I save up the 25,000 he wants for the figurine. Maybe that unlocks something. <br/>
<br/>
Onward and downward!
</div>

That rascal!  If you've offended an NPC you can usually select the option to cast a Charm spell.  It may take several castings before they'll talk to you again.  While we're on that topic, NEVER pick a fight with an NPC, they won't come back and you need them!  I know that the option is there but in most cases it means you cannot finish the game.  Now THAT's mean spirited!<br/>
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If you steal and get caught, they usually want to fight, so use the reset trick.  But none of them have anything worth the risk that you won't eventually find adventuring.<br/>
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Every item obtained from an NPC is used somewhere in the game.  There will come a point where you leave sevreral items with a "home" character because you don't need them at the moment, but you want to keep them to return to NPC's to test new keywords.<br/>
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If you accidentally drop or lose a key item (note: if it's not equipped, certain enemies can steal it!) you can return to the location you got it from and obtain it again.  Sometimes that's a pain in the butt so I just used the reset trick when it said something was stolen.<br/>
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If I remember right, on the warlord's secretary's level <div class="spoiler"> there are secret doors in the squares at the bottom. </div>

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 17/02/2020, 23:24:35</div>

I charmed Ascot and he started talking again, but I couldn’t get anything useful out of him. I bought the Holy Talisman off him and can’t see that it does anything but reduce your piety, pretty much the opposite of what you’d expect a holy talisman to do! I may have gotten ripped off. <br/>
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Still no way into the dungeons but I’ll try searching again with the help of the talisman. Searching for secret doors is really boring! Some of them are in obvious places (which is how I found Ascot) but I’ve searched all the obvious places and most of the non-obvious ones as well with no luck....

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 18/02/2020, 05:09:54</div>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: Visstar</b><br>
I charmed Ascot and he started talking again, but I couldn’t get anything useful out of him. I bought the Holy Talisman off him and can’t see that it does anything but reduce your piety, pretty much the opposite of what you’d expect a holy talisman to do! I may have gotten ripped off. 
</div>

The talisman comes into play later.  Either hold onto it, or give it to a "home" character until it's needed.<br/>
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Directions to lower floor:
<div class="spoiler"> From town, enter dungeon.  Head EAST until message, then NORTH through 1 door.  WEST through another door.  Door SOUTH is locked - either use a thief or have a wizard cast level 2 "Knock".  Go through that door, then 1 space WEST (N5 E7).  Search for a hidden object. </div>

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 18/02/2020, 23:49:03</div>

Thanks. I was in that room and thought it was just an old storage room and moved on. I discovered it long before I realized you were expected to camp and search pretty much everywhere you go. That and the inability to make notes on the map make the game frustrating.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 19/02/2020, 00:52:36</div>

It is frustrating if you're used to modern comforts.  Wizardry 5 used that technique quite a bit - there's a locked door, so shouldn't there be something worth locking it for?  The mapping was frustrating for me, I love games with an auto-map that you can bring up anytime.<br/>
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I'm currently playing Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land on PS2 and having some frustration with the fact that my created party rocks but if I don't add the game's plotline characters to my party then I lose content.  What blows is that the plotline characters can't change classes in the traditional way (you have to force them by using items that cause class change) so they're gimped as far as cross-training skills.  And there's more than enough of these characters to make your entire party, which I feel is a gimmicky way to get "replayability" by not allowing you all the content in one playthrough.<br/>
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I believe once you enter that floor
<div class="spoiler">You go into an area of darkness.  There is a door in a straight direction from the stairs (I want to say South?), not hidden (other than the darkness), just keep using the bottom move action when you hit a wall.  Once you go through that door you will be out of the darkness. </div>

Edit:  Aside from my gripe, Tale of the Forsaken Land is turning out to be a decent old-school Wizardry.  It <I>[I]almost[/I]</I> gets too far into anime graphics for my tastes, the overall plot is bleh, but there are many subplots and sidequests to follow.  I'm hooked, gotta finish it - and then there's postgame content!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 22/02/2020, 00:27:30</div>

Yup, found the hacksaw and wheedled the key out of the gatekeeper, so I’m currently exploring B2. Someone keeps replacing the chain, though - I’ll be glad when my mage gets Teleport.  ;) <br/>
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So far I’m doing OK memorizing locations, but soon I’ll have to think of an easy way to save and annotate the map. <br/>
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This game is really stingy. I’ve explored 3.5 levels and the best thing I’ve found is a halberd!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 23/02/2020, 18:37:04</div>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: Visstar</b><br>
Yup, found the hacksaw and wheedled the key out of the gatekeeper, so I’m currently exploring B2. Someone keeps replacing the chain, though - I’ll be glad when my mage gets Teleport.  ;) <br/>
<br/>
So far I’m doing OK memorizing locations, but soon I’ll have to think of an easy way to save and annotate the map. <br/>
<br/>
This game is really stingy. I’ve explored 3.5 levels and the best thing I’ve found is a halberd!
</div>

Keep looking!  Lower levels of course give better weapons.<br/>
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Here is a big tip.  Once you find a particularly morbid pool (you'll know it):<br/>

<div class="spoiler"> A pool of blood.  One of the swim levels subtracts one point of Constitution in exchange for a small random amount of added HP.  The game doesn't auto-register it until after you take another action, so just close the app and restart your away party if you get too small a HP gain, it will be like it didn't happen.  (Which means after a good HP gain, make sure you take another action so it keeps it if you close the app!)  There is also a decent fight at the bottom of that pool for good XP.<br/>
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The cheesiest:  Have 3 strongly armored characters in the top slot, making sure you have at least 2 casts of Teleport.  Create 3 new characters, start them as fighters, put them in the back row with ranged weapons - give them Dex, Con, and try to get enough Piety to class change to a priest.  Go to both pools on Level 2 and train all three new characters to swim to their deepest.  Use Teleport to go back and forth from town to the bloody pool and fight on the bottom level until your new fighters are level 13, and try to guarantee max Con and at least 11 Piety.  Then with nice beefy fighter HP already, use all your Constitution points on that one pool level (I think you become "lost" if you get lower than 2),  Use the reset trick to get at least 5 HP per Con point and to undo dead or lost status.  Change class to Priest - repeat.  On each level-up make sure you get 1 point in Piety and Constitution (hopefully you can get to Refresh on all characters by 13) and get enough Wisdom to change to a Wizard.  Repeat the routine, change to Wizards.  This time, try to get the stats you'd like for their final class (assuming it isn't Wizard).  Finally, create 3 more characters and repeat this entire process.<br/>
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What you now have is 6 characters with about 200+ HP, all have Refresh and the Map spell. </div>

This will absolutely coast you through most of the game.  There is one spot at the end where this becomes a slight disadvantage, but having the major advantage through the game makes it more than worthwhile!

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