View source for New Classes & Tweaks - ID: 1606

==== FORUM: [[Feature Requests]] ====
'''This topic was started by aldube30 on 15/01/2020, 09:23:02'''

<div class="postinfo">Post by aldube30 on 15/01/2020, 09:23:02</div>

After reading many posts on this forum and playing the game for a while I though of these hybrid classes for adding a half role to a party instead of making sacrifices.<br/>
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The Bandit - aka Warrior/Rogue<br/>
Max HP/level 12<br/>
Saving throw base 16<br/>
Lv1 Thaco 21<br/>
Thaco improve every 2 lv<br/>
Save improve every 2 lv<br/>
Standard Exp table that Warriors use<br/>
Gains an extra attack every 4 levels starting at 5th level.<br/>
Primary stats: ST, CN, DX (Maybe lower the Maximums due to the extra stat 22 instead of 25)<br/>
Half the % points for Rogue skills at Lv1 and every new level.<br/>
Weapons, Armor, usable items; start with Rogue equipment as a base, then add a good selection of warrior weapons & add 1 step improvement over the Rogue’s Armor selection.<br/>
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The Gladiator - aka Warrior/Monk<br/>
Max HP/level 12<br/>
Saving throw base 16<br/>
Lv1 thaco 20<br/>
Thaco improve every 2/3 (no improvement every 3rd lv starting at 2nd lv)<br/>
Save improve every 2 lv<br/>
Primary stats: ST, DX, CN (Maybe lower the maximums due to extra stat 22 instead of 25)<br/>
New exp table needed.<br/>
Gains an extra attack every other level starting at 3rd level.<br/>
Half progression in fist damage chart, monk AC, & half points for chain attacks.<br/>
Weapons, Armor, usable items; start with Monk equipment as the base, the add a good selection of Warrior weapons & add a one step improvement over the Monk’s Armor selection.<br/>
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The Paladin is technically a Warrior hybrid already, so shouldn’t get diluted with anything else.<br/>
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The Bard is also technically a hybrid, it seems unfair that a Bard gets a singing sword super weapon, where the Warrior gets nothing comparable.  It would probably be more preferable to see a Warrior/Bard hybrid with half the songs, song duration, bard skill points, & half the Warrior multiple attacks.  The other possibility could be a Bard/Rogue hybrid that is the jack of all trades.<br/>
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I’m not a fan of the Hunter class seeing it as gimmicky, but some people might like a Hunter/Monk hybrid like what I’ve done with the Warrior above.  Maybe the Hunter should get a perception skill, but it only works outdoors.<br/>
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As I think of more practical possibilities, I’ll post those in this topic.  The game has different game modes, these class mods could be added to a Options game mode using Modern rules, so it doesn’t change the core game in the other modes.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by aldube30 on 21/01/2020, 03:43:17</div>

Further enhancement on the classes above.<br/>
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The Bandit Warrior/Rogue may be a bit too generic, but adopting a Wizardry 7/8 theme Ranger, we could further refine & limit the Rogue skills to just Hide in Shadows, Disarm Traps, & Perception.  Prime Requisites could be Constitution & Dexterity.  The Wizadry 7/8 Rangers had Alchemy magic, but since Alchemy is available to all classes in Silversword we'll just disreguard that.  It wouldn't take much tweaking to make a Ranger limited 3rd/4th melee fighter or bow user at home in Siver sword.  Since he doesn't get critical hits from hiding in  shadows, maybe a hit & damage bonus would apply.<br/>
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The Gladiator Warrior/Monk doesn't have much content to borrow from, unless you're looking at Adnd 2nd Ed, the next closest thing would be a Samurai, who would be a lightly armored Warrior who would specialise in chain attacks, just drop the unarmed fist damage & monk AC or maybe have a reduced monk AC, with a few tweaks in equipment & stats this could be another welcome addition to Silversword.  The Wizardy 7/8 Samurais had offensive magic as their extra abilities, but I don't think we would need that for this game.  The Prime Reqisites could be Dexterity & Constitution or make max HP/Level 16 then make Strenght & Dexterity the prime requisites.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 21/01/2020, 16:22:28</div>

This is interesting. I've always felt that the classes in D&D, starting with the original Gygax and literally hard coded in Wizardry, were too restrictive. If you look back before D&D to the major source materiel, you find many characters with hybrid class characteristics, such as Conan, a nightly warrior who was an accomplished thief, Aragorn, a mighty warrior with healing powers, and Gandalf, a powerful mage who could hold his own battling with a sword. Someone said mages in D&D were so restricted in combat because they could not touch metal, but most D&D allowed them to use daggers. And of course in Silversword, there is no real distinction between Priest/healing spells and Wizard/combat spells. (And of course a warrior can become a powerful magic user via the Dragoncaller class.)<br/>
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Anyway, it would be interesting to see a game where you could build your own hybrids by ticking off checkboxes instead of selecting a class from a menu. For instance, you could click warrior, thief, and healer or monk/ninja and wizard. As you tick boxes you get warnings that adding skills to your character has drawbacks. like gaining experience points more slowly or just being slightly weaker at each skill since you are not specializing.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 23/01/2020, 02:11:01</div>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: Visstar</b><br>
Someone said mages in D&D were so restricted in combat because they could not touch metal, but most D&D allowed them to use daggers.
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That was true with Druids in old-school D&D, contact with metals disrupted their earthly connection.  There were exceptions to the rules available, for instance, DM's could allow Druids to use metal weapons, but their abilities were either weakened or lost for a period of time.<br/>
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Likewise, Wizards could use broadswords, but with a -4 penalty.  With more exotic weapons it was a -6 penalty with potential to hurt themselves.<br/>
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Priests were based off the idea of a time before separation of church and state, when the clergy served as police.  Their restrictions came from the idea of a modern-day cop in riot armor with a shield and a club or nightstick quelling a protest riot, reverse-engineered to an ancient time.  (Of course, we know that in RL churches had no problem with using the sword to quash riots!)  In some alternative rules, the priests of certain Gods could use pointy weapons, while in others they would lose favor of their Gods for using them.  Usually, though, the DM's would just say that no matter how much they want to use the weapon, their moral guidance just won't let them go through with it (and they lose their turn in "internal struggle" or whatnot if they insist).<br/>
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Eventually, all that was thrown out the window in 3rd Edition when Elves could be clerics, as Elves were naturally proficient in swords and bows.<br/>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: Visstar</b><br>
Anyway, it would be interesting to see a game where you could build your own hybrids by ticking off checkboxes instead of selecting a class from a menu. For instance, you could click warrior, thief, and healer or monk/ninja and wizard. As you tick boxes you get warnings that adding skills to your character has drawbacks. like gaining experience points more slowly or just being slightly weaker at each skill since you are not specializing.
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The Exile series (later remade into Avernum) had a system like that.  Every level, you put points into various attributes or skills (similar to Lootbox), but when you first create your party, you can check boxes to give your characters extra traits (positive ones increase XP needed for level-up by a %, negative ones decreased).  For an old game, it actually has a great party creation system - but of course everything else about the games are overwhelmingly dated.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by aldube30 on 23/01/2020, 09:22:51</div>

Yes, it seems D&D was the inspiration for many RPGs.<br/>
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Designing hybrid/multi-classes can be complex, but it doesn’t have to be.<br/>
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A a-la-carte system where you pick individual skills and mix & match is the most complex system, and I personally don’t like & avoid those.<br/>
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A multi-class just selects 2 or 3 full themed classes, and pays the full price of all. The combo is meant to replace all individual classes, but at a great cost of double or triple exp.<br/>
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Hybrid classes, are a mix of two or more classes, but don’t specialize in the same way core classes specialize; a Archer in Might & Magic specializes at ranged combat, not heavy melee like a knight nor magic like the mage.<br/>
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Class changing is sometimes thought as multi-classing, but if there’s not much skills being carried over to the new career, then it’s not.  Not a great system for carrying over skills from another class.<br/>
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There’s the Ad&d 3rd Edition rules of changing class as often as you like but are limited to a max of 3 class choices.  You could gain 9 levels in fighter, 1 in thief, and 2 in mage for a total of 12 levels.  You pay the exp for a 13th level character if you want a 2nd level in thief.  The instant skills picked up for adding another class (Armor & weapons) doesn’t seem balanced to me.<br/>
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There’s also been games where a secondary class could be added like Guild Wars.  The primary class determined most of the stats & abilities, the secondary class just supplemented extra options.<br/>
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A package system might be the best way to go for building & customizing characters & classes:<br/>
A regular class has 4 packages Warrior (1 - basic weapons & armor, 2 - medium, 3 - heavy, 4  - warrior skills), Mage (1 - mage armor & weapons, 2 - low magic, 3 - mid magic, 4 - high magic).  A player could decide remove heavy armor from their warrior and add a Mage’s low magic to keep the exp requirements the same, or simply add low magic and pay an extra 25% per level to level up.  The more warrior packages the more HP, the more Mage packages the more MP; thaco & saves would be a proportional blended average.  The same for Rogue & specialized skills.  For a game where the party is 6 or 7 characters, the extra packages should stop at 2 for a total of 6 packages +50% exp, to do more would be to fully multi-class paying the full price of two classes.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 23/01/2020, 23:06:37</div>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: aldube30</b><br>
A package system might be the best way to go for building & customizing characters & classes:<br/>
A regular class has 4 packages Warrior (1 - basic weapons & armor, 2 - medium, 3 - heavy, 4  - warrior skills), Mage (1 - mage armor & weapons, 2 - low magic, 3 - mid magic, 4 - high magic).  A player could decide remove heavy armor from their warrior and add a Mage’s low magic to keep the exp requirements the same, or simply add low magic and pay an extra 25% per level to level up.  The more warrior packages the more HP, the more Mage packages the more MP; thaco & saves would be a proportional blended average.  The same for Rogue & specialized skills.  For a game where the party is 6 or 7 characters, the extra packages should stop at 2 for a total of 6 packages +50% exp, to do more would be to fully multi-class paying the full price of two classes.
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I played a game like this on my iPhone a couple years ago and damned if I remember what it's called!  As you fight monsters, you can obtain "class cards".  You can equip a certain number of cards on a character (depending on level) and the experience the character gets is divided amongst the cards equipped.  Each card also has a branching set of skills so as you gain points for that card, you can "purchase" skills upon varying paths.  The character can use all the known skills on the cards they have equipped.  Once you obtain all the skills on a card, you can equip a new card of that kind for higher levels of those same skills.  As enjoyable as the party development system was (all characters are story-based so no creation), I stopped playing because the translation was bad and I didn't find the game's story all that interesting.  But if anyone knows the title to this game, please post it!!!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by aldube30 on 24/01/2020, 03:27:03</div>

<QUOTE>[quote]I played a game like this on my iPhone a couple years ago and damned if I remember what it's called! As you fight monsters, you can obtain "class cards". You can equip a certain number of cards on a character (depending on level) and the experience the character gets is divided amongst the cards equipped. Each card also has a branching set of skills so as you gain points for that card, you can "purchase" skills upon varying paths. The character can use all the known skills on the cards they have equipped. Once you obtain all the skills on a card, you can equip a new card of that kind for higher levels of those same skills.</div>
No, that's the exact opposite of what I'm proposing.  Characters with a custom class designed with the package system I'm suggesting, would be made at character creation for level 1, and are LOCKED into those choices until the end of game or until the player retired that character at a camp/tavern and creates a news customised level 1 character to replace him/her.  NO UPGRADING and NO CHANGING CLASSES.  The whole point of having a custom class at the beginning of the game is to watch those characters grow from the choices made at character creation, and adds a lot of strategy, replayability, and enjoyment to a RPG.  Nothing kills a game quicker that building the ultimate super powered party where every character can do everything.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 24/01/2020, 04:53:02</div>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: aldube30</b><br>
Characters with a custom class designed with the package system I'm suggesting, would be made at character creation for level 1, and are LOCKED into those choices until the end of game or until the player retired that character at a camp/tavern and creates a news customised level 1 character to replace him/her.  NO UPGRADING and NO CHANGING CLASSES. 
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The difference is the ability to create new characters - the game I referred to has static playable characters...  OK, changing course.<br/>
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How would you envision the leveling?  Do they get all chosen skills at once, or do they obtain them as they level?  It would seem reasonable for a Warrior to immediately be able to wear heavy armor, but it is not reasonable for a L1 Mage to cast high magics.  So do they choose these skills upon character creation that eventually kick in as they progress, then?<br/>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: aldube30</b><br>
The whole point of having a custom class at the beginning of the game is to watch those characters grow from the choices made at character creation, and adds a lot of strategy, replayability, and enjoyment to a RPG.  Nothing kills a game quicker that building the ultimate super powered party where every character can do everything.
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Powergamer's gonna powergame!  YMMV, I've personally enjoyed both ways, where everything is done upfront at character creation (Gold Box games, early M&M) and development choices as you go (Exile, Avernum).  I'm not a big powergamer myself, I usually develop closer to tropes than trying to purely hack the mechanics.  But some people enjoy that, and they'll find a way, believe you me - they'll find a way to min/max whatever system you come up with!

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Visstar on 24/01/2020, 15:43:12</div>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: chrlpolk</b><br>
How would you envision the leveling?  Do they get all chosen skills at once, or do they obtain them as they level?  It would seem reasonable for a Warrior to immediately be able to wear heavy armor, but it is not reasonable for a L1 Mage to cast high magics.  So do they choose these skills upon character creation that eventually kick in as they progress, then?
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If it were me, I'd give the starting warrior/mage level one warrior abilities (including armor) and level one mage skills (improved magic resistance, basic spells, and limited spell points, and then as the character levels up, let the player choose what to do each time. If they choose to level up as a warrior, they would get more hit points and improved strength, and if they chose to level up as a mage, they would get more spell points and intelligence/wisdom, but fewer hit points. That way the character become a Level 3 or 5 warrior with decent hit points and extra attacks/damage, then start working on magery.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by aldube30 on 26/01/2020, 07:23:38</div>

There’s many ways to customize a character, but how does one justifies a lv 1 warrior’s weapon & armor selection when the character has 9 levels in mage?  Ad&d 3rd Ed (Neverwinter Nights) has rules for uneven levelling, but there’s downsides that players don’t like about those too...<br/>
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The package system is meant to commit to a constant and consistent skill growth for game balance, otherwise the game gets rapidly unbalanced without the balancing checks in place.  Warriors have weapon & armor restrictions based on available money and experience levels to be able to beat the foes to obtain the items.  Mage’s 3 magic skill packages kick in as the mage levels up, so if it takes 20 levels to learn all the spells for a pure mage, the a dabbler would take the same amount of time with their one or two packages (slower learning curve with fewer spell points per level.)<br/>
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Another advantage of a package system is items can have package requirements instead of class requirements, making game design simpler & more flexible. Some items may even have more than one package requirement like a flaming sword needing warrior package 2 for swords and mage package 1.<br/>
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There can be packages for many different groups warriors, rogues, mages, clerics, alchemists, monks, Bard’s, etc... as many as the game designer wants.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 26/01/2020, 23:07:23</div>

Ah, I see.  So your thoughts are that the player should pick all the packages at character creation.  Then as they progress, they get the benefits (or get shut out of using certain items/spells) based on package requirements.  If at some point you find that Flame Sword and want to use it, but your Warrior doesn't have the mage package, then you'll have to create a new character with that package setup.<br/>
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This could have a profound RP implication - the difference between training and study, and applicable skillsets during adventuring.  Football players typically don't pick up new skills during games, but during the "off season" training.  Likewise, Adventurers have their training periods prior to the game, and although Adventuring hones those skills, either the Warrior studied a bit of the magic arts during training, or they focused on being able to wear heavier armor - but they aren't trying to grasp Arcane calculus by campfire, nor are they walking around in heavy armor in hopes to somehow learn to fight in it.  They either trained in it "off season" or they didn't.<br/>
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Likewise, the packages represent a potential, not necessarily an immediate application.  So the straight Warrior packaged adventurer has the potential to wear heavy armors, even though some might have restrictions requiring them to level first.  And the straight Mage adventurer has the potential to cast high magics even if some initial restriction prevents a level 1 character from learning the Nuke 'Em spell.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by aldube30 on 28/01/2020, 03:57:02</div>

A level 1 mage wouldn't be able to cast higher level spells, there's still minimum level requirements for spells and minimum spell points required to cast.  Just think of the package system as a investment, having enough packages in a class makes you a member of that class and controls the amount HP & MP per level and the learning speed of skills & Magic (including thaco & saves).   In some RPGs, like Might & Magic you are locked into those class choices.  All a package system does is customize your own character class at the beginning of the game instead being stuck with the vanilla flavoured choices.  Changing classes kind of spoils the fun of games, and it's hard to balance as no two class changing options are equal.  Each new level a character goes up opens new opportunies for better spells, skills, & thaco, advancing a level is it's own reward.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by chrlpolk on 29/01/2020, 14:39:14</div>

<div class="quote"><b>Quote from Author: aldube30</b><br>
A level 1 mage wouldn't be able to cast higher level spells, there's still minimum level requirements for spells and minimum spell points required to cast.
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Right, so the L1 full Mage packaged character just has the potential to eventually cast higher level spells.  And the L1 full Warrior package may have the potential to wear full plate armor, but where to even buy that at the starting village?  And that flame sword would surely be handy against those ghouls haunting the tombs, but you'll need to create a new character that has a fighter & mage package combo.  I think we're getting closer to a same-page situation!   ;)

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