View source for Making the Rogue awesome - ID: 956

==== FORUM: [[Feature Requests]] ====
'''This topic was started by limmer on 29/11/2012, 20:16:54'''

<div class="postinfo">Post by limmer on 29/11/2012, 20:16:54</div>

Ok, as much as we like to think otherwise, the Rogue is really getting a bad rep. You can force inclusion of the Rogue into the party by making chests harder to crack by non-Rogues, but the truth is, it's a full slot taken up just for that occasional juicy chest. It's more than 1/7th of my combat power given that the equally weak (for most of the game) Bard, I'm really looking at 5/7th combat power, but with no redeeming qualities (like the Bard has) to counter balance the weakness. Really, it's a embarrasing to be Rogue when old Myrddin (my AM) can replace you with a simple summon to fill your slot. I can finish the game, come back later and look at chests if I really want to. I might miss out on a few awesome items, so what? I can always bring in a Rogue to get that one fantastic item, then ignore all the others.The pain I skip far outweighs the need for opening that chest. <br/>
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So, do away with Rogues? No, freaking way. The notion of a swashbuckling Rogue or a deathly silent Ninja in my overly-romantic mind is too real. I say, we make the Rogue better! <br/>
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So, considering game balance and not making Mario kill himself consuming his own personal time  to create more miracles, here are some ideas. <br/>
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1. Make the Rogue attaack up to 90' after hiding. You can really tip the balance here when you have this freaky assasin that can just 'reach out and touch someone.'  Game balance wise, it will not eliminate the Hunter as the Rogue needs to succesfully hide first. So, it's not able to "critically kill" as often as the Hunter, but now that it can hide "from damage" you have a real "hard to kill" Rogue too. The Rogue also should have the crit skill develop much slower than the Hunter once their range is enchanced. So, early game, they can do normal damage. Late game, when their damage isn't as high (even with Thief Dagger), their higher crit skill compensates. Another thought is to limit the range to maybe 50', but with a bow, it goes up to 70' or even 90.' Again, the Rogue shouldn't outshine the Hunter as the ultimate one hit killer. <br/>
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2. Introduce it as a skill. Say, call it "Backstab" skill or something. But as you progress in levels, your range goes up. Levels 1 -5, standard '20 feet. Increase range 10' every 5 levels. See the balance here?<br/>
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3. Let it use some magic weapons reserved only for magic users. Intoduce a level requirement, perhaps. So you preserve high level items for real magic users. A rogue (uncapitalized R) on wands strikes fear to the Mage of yore, after all.   <br/>
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4. Introduce 'Create Poison' skill. Yes, yes, I know I'm making the Rogue more like a Ninja, but you want a Rogue in your starting squad or not?  Poisoned weapons are rare, and their damage are paltry. But having a way to increase poison damage. Maybe set it to "Use skill on weapon." Harkens back to assasins dipping their blades in Medusa blood. Ooh the shivers. Could probably steal from the Runes algorithm to enchance the weapon as a the Create Poison skill. Likewise, the weapon can't be transferred. Hate to see all the frontliners with 15d4 damage added to their weapons. Well...they are all of good alignment, right? That's why they aren't rogues and hence will never accept a poisoned weapon? Still, if I where to morph into my evil high AC twin who's a also Rogue and watch him backstab a Strosstrupp, then idly watch it flail round after round, while the poison slowly kills it. Man...that's just...wrong. <br/>
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5. Maybe introduce a class change to the Rogue? Rogue to Assasin (or some other preferred lable.) You can now preserve the Rogue class for those who want the pure Rogue. <br/>
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Just ideas. Just want to preserve the Rogue and the fun that should come with it. <br/>
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By the way, love the homage paid to  Bjarne Stroustrup.<br/>
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- Limmer<br/>
'No, that's not a costume, that's my superhero underoos. THat's why I wear an elf cloak to cover up, you perv!"

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<div class="postinfo">Post by appthief on 29/11/2012, 21:01:29</div>

Some very good suggestions. I would think that some extra hits would be appropriate for a rogue. After all, with dexterity being a main attribute, one would think very high dexterity would lend itself to sneaking in an extra melee hit here and there. Perhaps something similar (or less) to that of what the paladin gains in extra hits. Maybe make it based upon the actual dexterity score rather than level based.  :)

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Ramzes on 01/12/2012, 15:13:42</div>

I also think the rogue gets a bad rep but I think he's fine as he is just now. Don't want him in your party? Then don't pick him. Want him? Pick him. I'm fine with 1/7th taken up with him. I don't need an extra magic user. I don't need an unbeatable party. Where's the fun in that?<br/>
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That said:<br/>
I do like the multiple hits idea and the reasoning behind. Would make up for the initial puniness. <br/>
I do like the extra range idea but I'd change it to +20/30ft when hidden. <br/>
What I really would like is to remove the hassle with lock picks. Either the rogue doesn't need lock picks to try to open chests or he has a super strong unbreakable lock pick that never runs out.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Damuri on 07/12/2012, 17:52:03</div>

Its not that the rogue has a bad rep, its that he adds nothing unique (or very little) to the party after your magic users have gotten all their utility spells.<br/>
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If you wanted to create a great class, then merge monk and rogue so that monks get rogue skills.<br/>
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While we're at it, we could make some of the paladin spells scale a little more or at least reduce SP cost as they level up.<br/>
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Also, didn't monks increase AC as they leveled up?  Their armor prohibitions and lower HP makes them kind of squishy for the front line especially at lower levels.<br/>
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With all that said, this is a good game.  I would recommend it to anyone old enough to have played the old school games like this.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Lanzlo on 25/12/2012, 16:46:22</div>

Agreed on all of this. I love the concept of the Rogue. But yes, it's battle effectiveness is somewhat limited.<br/>
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Perhaps have the Rogue the only class that can wield two weapons at once? Give him a penalty to hit for wielding two weapons, but each hand can deal an attack. And, if attacking from the shadows, a chance to critically hit.<br/>
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And/or add a 'class change' for the Rogue, into Assassin, who can critical hit without hiding first, but gets a bonus if he does.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by Trendar on 25/12/2012, 17:26:07</div>

I think one big problem with the rogue is that as the Hunter levels up, he's able to crit hit without hiding. One possible solution to the Rogue would be to make crit hit less certain for the Hunter. Perhaps cap crit-hit % at 33%. If the rogue could crit hit 99%, hiding would be more valuable and worth doing. As it is, I had 2 Hunters for a big part of the game and stashed the Rogue until I needed to open a chest/door. If Mario doesn't want to make structural changes to profiencies of character per the suggestions, I would just limit the Hunter's crit hit. It would shrink the Hunter's attractiveness but it would only require changing the Hunter. You wouldn't have to change the Rogue at all and his value would increase substantially. <br/>
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Another way to increase the value of the rogue without changing his hide requirement is to create a few new weapons. Say, darts. "Wood" darts shoot 1. "Stone" darts shoot 2. "Metal" darts shoot 3. "Thief" darts shoot 5. They might be hard to find, but if these darts can crit hit a group, that makes the Rogue incredibly valuable. There's no weapon, spell, or character that can crit hit a group of 5-10 monsters. If you introduced a few weapons like this for the rogue, you wouldn't have to change the Hunter. In fact, you wouldn't have to change anything. Just a few new weapons for the Rogue and he goes from a glorified locksmith to a dangerous character with damage potential somewhere between a fighter-bard-caster.

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<div class="postinfo">Post by wizardz on 25/12/2012, 20:38:23</div>

I have to disagree with restricting existing classes to make others more attractive. Making the hunter less effective because we want others to use the rogue more has a negative impact on the game for others. You do not have to play the hunter if he is too strong for your liking. If others like the hunter class, let them play it. <br/>
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I agree the rogue could be stronger, though. How about an Attack and Hide command for the rogue?

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